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Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

nytimes.com

231–240 of 789 posts

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#231

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

Then you see counter-arguments, like "well if you don't want to get banned, don't say bad things!" But then, who decides what's bad?

I've been banned from or chosen to leave multiple platforms. The crux of the issue: I have an incurable medical condition that I manage with diet and lifestyle. I've gotten off all the drugs I'm supposed to be on.

I get viciously attacked by others. When I complained to the mods on other platforms (not HN), I have been told their ugly attacks, in clear violation of the rules, are fine and I'm the problem.

I've been told I'm crazy. I've been told I have Munchausen, never mind that Munchausen involves faking illness for attention and my claim is I'm getting healthier. I've had people maliciously suggest that my son, who has the same diagnosis I have, is a product of incest.

I mean, this is ugly stuff. There's zero justification for some of the things that have been said to me.

I've worked hard at trying to figure out how to tread lightly, be very polite and respectful, etc. But, when all is said and done, the unforgivable offense appears to be that I'm a dirt-poor former homemaker who spent several years homeless who claims to have solved a problem that doctors and scientists can't figure out.

So, basically, speaking the truth about my life makes me persona non grata. I can find no way forward for what's an acceptable way to try to talk to people about any of this. Even without trying to promote solutions or make money from it, simply trying to talk to people in public forums about this stuff is essentially a bannable offense in many places.

I've spent years trying to not end up like Semmelweis:* committed to an asylum and dead because of it for trying to say "Hey, world, I think I know something medically useful."

I don't know what the solution is. But every time I see an article about someone being banned from a platform and saying they really don't have other options and this is a threat to their livelihood, etc, I'm extremely sympathetic. I was homeless for years and asking how I can make money online and essentially being told by a lot of people to STFU and GTFO, people who like to see themselves as good and kind and generous and making the world a better place.

This was a potentially life-threatening situation for me. This was tantamount to attempted murder by shunning.

If you have no ability to access income and everyone tries to send you away, when you run out of places to go, you know, death becomes a very real possibility.

I don't have solutions. But I'm reluctant to say "Well, those people just need to behave." What does that even mean if you can find yourself in the same shoes as them for getting healthier and trying to figure out how to discuss that with people?

* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#233

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

> The societal norms are shifting to a place where there are certain topics that are not allowed to be discussed at all even if looking at them from a critical lens.

Patreon want to prevent the expression of certain thoughts. For example, they are against "negative generalizations, of people based on their race". However, negative generalisations are sometimes true. For example the homicide rate in Japan is much lower than in Jamaica; from this it follows that Jamaicans are on average more homicidal than Japanese. That's a negative generalisation. It's also true.

I wouldn't mind that Patreon are censorious, if there were lots of alternatives. But that brings me to your other point:

> Centralization is the real evil, here.

This is the real problem, plus the fact that internet-based services tend to become centralised, due to network effects, high fixed costs and low variable costs.

I'm not sure what the solution is. Encouraging decentralisation seems to me a bit like trying to make water run uphill: you can do it, but it's an effort and as soon as you stop, the water just runs back downhill.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#234
post #97

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

We live in a world where corporate entities have an extraordinary control over our lives, what opinions we see and hear, even if we actively seek out those opinions. At some point we need to stop thinking about free speech as simply a guarantee against government intrusion, but also a guarantee against our increasingly powerful corporate overlords.

This echoes my thoughts as well. Consider the following: If a democratically elected government which is beholden to the wills of the people by (generally) fair elections cannot be trusted to wield the powers of censorship responsibly, then why on Earth should we trust tech companies beholden to no one but their shareholders to wield that power responsibly?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know anything about this particular case, but it is certainly possible to be a Nazi while claiming to be anti-Nazi.

I can't speak to what's really in the guy's head, but he seemed to be arguing with and insulting nazis.

By saying that they, and I quote Mr. Benjamin here:

> "White people are meant to be polite and respectful to one another, and you guys can’t even act like white people, it’s really amazing to me."

That sure sounds like someone who espouses a racial ideology to me, even if he hates other people who put on the nazi emblem.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#236
post #161

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

>Then you see counter-arguments, like "well if you don't want to get banned, don't say bad things!" But then, who decides what's bad? That's easy: whoever owns the platform. If I own the platform, Daily Stormer isn't going to be using it. I don't want to be associated with those morons, so I'm not going to do business with them. If it's my platform and my business, I have every right to refuse to do business with tho…

No, we don't need to make a government service that doesn't discriminate. We just need to designate things like payment processors and hosting providers as utilities. Your electric company, plumbing company, or mail carrier can't just choose not to do business with someone because they dislike their political views.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But now you're changing the argument: that not only must you have free speech, but that others must assist you in getting compensated for your speech and to help you potentially subsist off of it. That's never been part of any conversation about free speech. (Even the broader non 1st amendment version). And it doesn't make sense. You can always take cash or check. The post office doesn't discriminate.

Thank you for mentioning the post office. The post office is a great example of a service that could just as well be private and should, in that case, still not be allowed to discriminate.

And indeed a privatized USPS could potentially be considered a common carrier and regulated as such, although note that currently neither UPS or FedEx is.

But that has no bearing on financial services (like square or visa, which are all contract carriers) or hosting companies (also contract carriers), or other things like that. ISPs are the one exception which might fit the bill of a common carrier.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And when the new payment company bans him, then what? Then he'll learn a valuable lesson about what is and isn't owed to him in life. Why do you suppose that the world owes everyone a soapbox that dispenses money? > And are you OK if Twitter bans all left leaning people just because of their beliefs? I'd be miffed, but that's their right. For example, it seems like Tumblr is making almost that exact mistake, as did…

So would you agree with a new black listing in Hollywood for example?

A what?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#239
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Centralization isn't the problem here, if you look back at history there are more platforms for people to speak their mind than ever before. Before you the internet you had to deal with the three major networks to get on TV and most exterme speech, on either end of the spectrum, was relegated to the fringes. There has always been a realm of discourse that society agrees upon and that we use to set the boundaries of c…

> Centralization isn't the problem here, if you look back at history there are more platforms for people to speak their mind than ever before. But there aren't. It's an illusion of diversity. They're all owned or being bought up by the same centralized handful of outfits-turned-conglomerates that have always controlled the means of distribution. Haven't you noticed the flurry of mergers (successful or not) in the las…

There is literally no barrier preventing a company from creating its own platform from scratch. If you want to enable an infrastructure that supports no holds barred speech online you can start today, you may not be able to Stripe or Cloudfare, but the internet at it's core is still open.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#240
post #69

The article avoids the specifics of what Benjamin said, which makes it hard to judge whether Patreon is acting reasonably. The interview in question is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ87Wf-0rZg . Here are some excerpts from the automatically generated transcript (click the 3 dots, then "Open transcript"): I just can't be bothered to deal with people who treat me like this it's really annoying like I you are a…

Where the machine transcript says "exactly how you describe black people acting is the impression I get dealing with y'all", the last word should be "the alt-right". That is one piece of context: the people he's arguing against are (known for being) racist, anti-Semitic, and anti-homosexual.

Further, the "kikes are ruining everything" part seems to be a paraphrasing of the alt-right: "Go and bother, like, mic.com's comment section or something. You know, they are actually getting millions of views? The thing is, they just ignore you, which is why you don't, because you're just attention-seeking. It's not about, like, actually doing any good, it's about getting attention. And I see, like, 'kikes are ruining everything'. [laughs] Good—good—good job. Should tackle field [I can't understand this sentence]. You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis! Great! Bravo!"

Later: "It's just like how Mike Enoch was treated, when people found out his wife was Jewish. It's just like, he had to go dark, he had to go off the internet, because of the way these people treat him. It's like, holy shit, that's one of your own? Oh, he's married to a Jew, well, I guess, that's a bit of bad luck to be married before he was an alt-righter. Yes, he did, well, there we go. Kind of like 'Millenial was sucking a dick'. You know, it's like, it's crazy. You guys have no decorum. There's no level too low to go to."

It seems clear that at least the "anti-Semitic" aspect of his comments is, in fact, deniable.

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