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SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites

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Re: SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites

#231
post #56

This video [0] really puts into perspective what SpaceX is trying to accomplish. Incredible stuff if they pull it off! [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=AdKNCBrkZQ4...

Another interesting watch is the TED talk by SpaceX COO Gwynne Shotwell earlier this year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dar8P3r7GYA

Say what you will about Musk, but the guy is truly ambitious and willing to shoot for the stars ( or mars at the moment ).

Re: SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites

#232
post #3

Does anyone have any context on what sort of internet speeds satellite internet has been benchmarked to provide. I can't imagine the latency being anywhere near good enough to do many of the high bandwidth things people use the internet for today.

Traditional satellite internet uses satellites in geostationary orbits, or 35,786km high above the equator. This is great because satellites in that orbit are stationary relative to the ground, so you just need a parabolic antenna pointed at a specific point in the sky to get great reception. But it's also terrible for latency because the signal takes 120ms just to get up, and another 120ms to get down. Assuming you…

Is lower latency the main benefit? Because there are other ways to combat that, like locating servers closer to where users are. Yes, there are some applications like HFT or gaming or whatever that need lower latency, but I think it would be more useful to the world at large if Starlink provides people all over the world with affordable broadband Internet access with a minimum speed of say 20mbps, say. People far from cities, people in developing countries with bad infrastructure (till a few years back, I had a 4mbps connection), people on islands with bad connectivity, trains, ships, planes, etc. Does it do the latter?

Re: SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you actually suggesting dropping SSL? Sure, Iridium is somewhat encrypted and indeed provide its own Facebook and Twitter apps.

Over 2400 baud? Yes, I probably would suggest dropping SSL and instead transmit pre-encrypted data over a very plain, very simple connection to avoid the overhead of SSL handshake (something like 5kb for current keysizes?) and its latency. GPG-encrypted email over plain POP would work; and you can have automatic "remailers" on both sides of the link that handle the encryption/decryption once the communications are do…

You pay full handshake setup only if you don't have a shared key. If reducing bandwidth is the priority you would always set up a key on first connection and use the maximum allowable expiry time (10 days?) so long as you reconnect this often you never do another full handshake since you have a key (and you're allowed to get a new key with the old one, resetting the expiry timestamp each time).

With this slimming approach you also wouldn't use these grotesque "... and here's a portrait of my dog" type certificates we sometimes see, that may be several kilobytes in size, nor use the lengthy RSA keys. You'd do the minimum possible certificate for a single name and an EC key.

So it'll probably cost ~1kB on first connection and then only a few hundred bytes on subsequent connections, without any special components, this all just works with generic software you already have if configured appropriately.

You can shave a little more off if you agree to custom configure everything since the proof-by-certificate isn't mandatory in TLS per se, you can do everything with shared keys if you agree out of band what those keys are. This is intended for IoT-type applications.

Re: SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites

#234
post #33

This is such a cool problem. We already have a ton of Geo sat which can do this kind of communication but they are super expensive and have a limited bandwidth. These satellites will actually have a ton of limitations in how much data they can send around and how they'll have to balance out their signals. Geo are easier to point to because, well they don't move. But these are going to be moving and changing all the t…

> Think about switching your router every 10 minutes. Cellular and WiFi AP roaming are solved problems. For SpaceX, this will be rather straightforward as the design specifies fixed ground stations that will handle negotiating/maintaining upstream connection(s). > Or you get a rainy day and your signal clarity goes down. That's more likely to be an issue, but having multiple satellites overhead, plus the fact that th…

> Cellular and WiFi AP roaming are solved problems.

While you may be right regarding the context in which you said this — satellites — as a blanket statement, that's not true: my smartphone loses Internet connectivity when I leave my house, and takes a few seconds before it connects to the cellular data network.

I'm surprised that phones don't establish a backup 4G connection when Wifi signal strength decreases suddenly, but before it disconnects. This has been talked about for years, but for whatever reason it hasn't been deployed or doesn't work well, at least with Android P.

Re: SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can build GPS (well, a GNSS would be more accurate) system without atomic clocks. One way to do so requires user equipment that can transmit back to the satellites, but that will already be the case for SpaceX's customers. You can also use Doppler measurements to get your location, although this tends to be less accurate, especially if you're moving quickly

You can also use Doppler measurements to get your location, although this tends to be less accurate, especially if you're moving quickly There would still be a market for lower cost lower resolution location.

But GPS is cheap enough and widely enough deployed. Devices like laptops that don't usually have GPS are usually used indoors. I don't see the market.

Re: SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites

#236
post #56

This video [0] really puts into perspective what SpaceX is trying to accomplish. Incredible stuff if they pull it off! [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=AdKNCBrkZQ4...

80msec is not a good outcome considering the cost and complexity of the investment. Aren't there alternative technologies to achieve this connectivity?

I think you might be underestimating latencies in the real world.

These [0] are statistics from Verizon showing 90ms RTT for trans-atlantic connections. Trans-pacific is > 100ms. 80ms seems highly competitive for me in this context.

[0] https://enterprise.verizon.com/terms/latency/

Re: SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a ~$10 billion constellation with an individual satellite lifespan of 5 years, the system would need to average ~$170 million per month for something resembling break-even. Current US satellite internet adoption is at 6.7% percent; push that up to 10% so I have some number to work with when accounting for market penetration and the rest of the world, and you’re looking at 32.5 million users, which sets an absolut…

You completely forgot the ground cpe equipment cost. That will be a substantial adder.

I was also wondering about this — will it be significantly costlier than a commodity fiber / cable/ VDSL router? If it's going to cost say $500, far fewer people around the world will be able to afford one.

Re: SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current US satellite internet adoption is at 6.7% percent Current US satellite adoption doesn't matter in this case because the new product would not suck. Satellite internet is not a viable competitor today for the various reasons others have stated here. Starlink however would compete directly with my DSL service and since I (and pretty much everyone else) hate our telco, the sky is the limit as they say.

That's completely wrong. It's 100% not going to compete with DSL. It will be used by enterprise, or people who pay $100+/more to offset equipment costs. The reason satellite internet costs so much is equipment cost.

I agree with you but on second thoughts, maybe that's okay if it pays for itself over time? I pay my ISP ₹3K a month. I wouldn't mind buying SpaceX's router for say ₹30K if my bill drops to ₹1K a month.

Re: SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites

#239
post #11

Too bad the public markets have given Elon such a lashing with Tesla, because I would love to buy into SpaceX. But then, I’m not the only one; “There is an unlimited amount of funding that the company could probably access globally in private markets," Hilmer said, adding that he has personally met many of "a diverse group" interested in SpaceX. Everywhere I travel around the world, investors of all types — individua…

Anybody who sees a ceo who plans to spend a large chunk of company profits on colonizing mars for the sake of humanity might think to themselves, "I wonder if I can start a similar company, avoid the mars colonization expenses and undercut them on price."

Then why haven't we seen competitors to SpaceX besides the money burning pit that is Blue Origin?

Re: SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites

#240
post #56

This video [0] really puts into perspective what SpaceX is trying to accomplish. Incredible stuff if they pull it off! [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=AdKNCBrkZQ4...

If Starlink didn't route data in space and instead used space only as a last mile, would it be significantly cheaper, or have higher bandwidth, or be feasible to provide without data caps? What are the economic and technical tradeoffs here?

I don't mind the latency of today's fiber or cable Internet, and if it's problem, it can be solved by moving servers closer to users.

That is, what if, instead of bypassing the fiber backbone, Starlink just tried to connect everyone to it? Because I'm assuming that sending a terabit of data between two major cities, like Chennai to NYC is going to be cheaper via undersea fiber.

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