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Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

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Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#231

Racism! Stong word, but this is what the Swedish cashless society is: indirect racism. Those at the margins of society are excluded from participating in society because they don't have Swedish bank accounts or Swedish credit cards. Many clubs and pubs require that to enter. Indirectly, this means that non-Swedish (non-white) people don't get into the club. Not direct racism, but indirect (the outcome is the same, no…

That equating Swedish (in terms of residency, citizenship and belonging to nation) with whiteness is just wrong.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted, but even broken clocks are right twice a day. Just because someone wrote a pre-scientific text which, today, supports antiauthoritarianism ... does not mean that antiauthoritarianism lacks its many other merits. Those people are right to fear national ID and cashlessness; their fear being from Revelations, doesn't necessarily make them religious nutjobs (of the sort whose fears we regularly and usefully igno…

> Granted, but even broken clocks are right twice a day. I doubt most Christians think the bible is a broken clock > Just because someone wrote a pre-scientific text which, today, supports antiauthoritarianism ... does not mean that antiauthoritarianism lacks its many other merits. Most of our culture and philosophy comes from pre-scientific texts. Authoritarianism didn't need science and the ability to stop certain…

> I doubt most Christians think the bible is a broken clock

Their choice, and I'm sure it must be good for their pretty little stained-glass filter that they keep in-place between their eyes and reality.

> Authoritarianism didn't need science and the ability to stop certain people from participating in commerce doesn't require computers.

All the more reason to oppose the general centralization and empowerment of authority, on principle, not just on the topic of this HN article.

> A small number

No doubt, and I feel that my phrasing conveyed that appropriately: "some Christians".

> while other groups have different interpretations of what the text means or how literal it is.

No doubt of that either; as we all know, Christianity is very diverse in the precise natures of its adherents' fantasies; be they Revelations-enhanced or otherwise. It's still all fantasy, though, which, I suppose, is what really matters in the end.

But, my point here in all of this, is that some of the things their Bible says, do happen to be inherently wise, when extracted from the original context. The "Mark of the Beast", I daresay, is one of them. And like any piece of the Bible that is actually of-use, its wisdom is best put into our own words and then the Biblical association discarded lest it cause weakness.

* * * * *

While I do focus on Christianity specifically, since that is the immediate topic, I should make it clear that I do not discriminate:

Religion sucks. All of it. And I pity those who need it, and those who only think they need it.

http://harmful.cat-v.org/society/religion/

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s festival payment done wrong, but cashless can be really great at festivals. In Denmark we have a festival called Skanderborg festival, and they build both your ticket and your cashless payment into the festival bracelet. You use the bracelet to pay everywhere, and you can add money to it a range of payment methods, from using a visa or similar in their app, to visiting one of the cash places where you can use…

The best payment experience I’ve had is cash. I pay for what I need and when I leave the festival I can still use my “credits” hassle free anywhere I like.

The trouble with cash is that you cannot really control high-school dropouts to charge $10 for a $2 beer without skimming a bit on the side. Hence this whole "here's some fake money that only works here" BS.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a Canadian citizen who ever used a credit/debit card at a cannabis dispensary (or if you even just invested or worked for a Canadian dispensary), you are now permanently barred from entering the United States. A cashless society is a totalitarian society.

Is this for real? How would the the DHS or another US entity know about payment transactions made on a canadian bank account? And, I realize that cannabis is not legal at the federal level in the US, but how would lawfully purchasing a cannabis product years ago disqualify you from entering the US?

I don't know about this specific case, but if you used a credit or debit card, it would be processed by Visa or Mastercard, which are both US companies, subject to US laws and regulations. That's how the US entities would know.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#235
My problem with cashless and just about everything electronic tech is: What happens when the network/power fails? What's the goto alternative? No one seems to point that out? It should not stop progress but it's important to make contingency plans in case of mass failure.

I wonder if salt as money will be fashionable again? :)

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#236

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

That’s festival payment done wrong, but cashless can be really great at festivals. In Denmark we have a festival called Skanderborg festival, and they build both your ticket and your cashless payment into the festival bracelet. You use the bracelet to pay everywhere, and you can add money to it a range of payment methods, from using a visa or similar in their app, to visiting one of the cash places where you can use…

Those system don't have to follow the same regulations as banks and thus have many more ways to extra money that might not be as obvious. Money when converted to tokens and credit are not money in the eye of the law, even if it is used identically to money and is the only currency allowed.

If you are lucky they will return any unused credit automatic to your credit card without any fees. I would like to know how common that is and what kind of terms and conditions most such system has. My cynicism tells me its about as abusive as they can get away with but to be fair I have not tested it (since I either refuse to prepay on principle or only get the exact amount I have decided to already spend).

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. Is this something you were doing before? If not, why did you bring it up? Who do you imagine is doing this?

When I moved from the bay area to Germany, I suddenly had to actively manage the cash in my wallet and intentionally bring coins -- coins, people! -- with me around town. Felt like taking a step backwards in time, really annoying. If you use the "wrong" bill denominations or don't have the right coins, cashiers can get irked at you too. It's so backwards compared to not having to think about it.

As someone who lives in Germany I find this surprising. Yes, people expect you to have bills of the right size. But coins? Never encountered that.

Cashless is more convenient. But given how fundamental money is in our society, I would never be fine with a centralized system that controls all payments. That is simply too much power in one place. I know HN is more about startup-hackers than FOSS-hackers, but I am pretty sure everyone here understands that this is a dangerous development.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't necessarily need a connection. It can work just as well with a QR code signature that the recipient uses later to broadcast the transaction.

Without the network, another recipient wouldn't know about that transaction and thus be susceptible to a double-spend, right?

Time-locked transactions can kind of help here.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you might be leery of criticizing any of these entities lest they withdraw your ability to do any of these things. That's a serious chilling effect.

Its a fear that shows up in a common interpretation of Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. This is one of the verses in the Bible that tends to drive a lot of the hatred for national ids and removal of cash in the US.

I'm with the Bible on this one. Same as the other verse that tells never to build your house on sand. It's good advice.
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