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A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

nytimes.com

231–240 of 516 posts

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#231

>Technologists building these products and writers observing the tech revolution were naïve, he said. >"We thought we could control it,” Mr. Anderson said. “And this is beyond our power to control. This is going straight to the pleasure centers of the developing brain. This is beyond our capacity as regular parents to understand." A 6 year old's brain has no chance against a team of trained data scientists. We all kn…

I disagree with your last point. Technology will always be "just a tool." By its nature, it is morally neutral. The use of technology for good or for evil reflects the morality of the people deploying it. Explosives, baseball bats, water, radios, software. All have been used for noble purposes and for evil. That does not impart morality to the technology.

Maybe, if you define 'technology' to be just things like instruction sets and transistor geometry.

By that narrow definition, phones contain more than technology: they contain policy. A phone loaded with addictive games embodies a policy of maximizing screen time. A phone with clickbait on its lock screen is designed to take up your time and bathe your retinas in bullshit. While the transistors are neutral, the policy is harmful.

As it happens, these policies are often set by people that mostly work on technology, so they get lumped together. From outside, people see the technology industry being responsible for all of it.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#232
post #57

This has always been a form of Luddism. Tech is inevitable. I view tech similarly to how I view sex-ed in 2018: it's been proven that if you do abstinence only education then bad things happen (teen pregnancies, stds, etc...). Your kids are going to grow up to be adults with bad tech habits if you don't start teaching them how to use it responsibly and protect themselves early. Help them find good content. Have days…

I don't think it's accurate to call this a form of Luddism, when the whole point of the article is that it is specifically Silicon Valley technologists that have come to the conclusion that this tech is a net negative for children.

The first 3-4 people mentioned in that article were connected to Facebook and Youtube, so "no shit" comes to mind when you think about them having a questionable relationship with tech and their own decision-making. Part of an education for anyone should be to understand why those two sites specifically can be problematic even if sometimes useful.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RTS games in particular were extremely fun for me, and I don't see how playing hours of Starcraft and C&C wasn't an exercise in strategic thinking. I share Ms. Stecher's skepticism, though. Games today are fundamentally different from what they were when we were growing up (I'm guessing we're around the same age if you were big into AoE). Some of my friends have kids now, and the games I see them playing make me crin…

> I don't see how playing hours of Starcraft and C&C wasn't an exercise in strategic thinking. You're kidding, right? Those RTS, particularly Starcraft, are an exercise in APS more than anything else. * For non-gamers, APS = actions per second. Being able to issue more commands than your opponent and "micro" (from the word micromanage) your units to tightly control their behavior are a large part of winning Starcraft…

I disagree. APM/APS is a requirement to play StarCraft well just like physical prowess is a requirement to play hockey. But it's far from being the only requirement.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#234

The same people that buy organic peas also have a paranoia about screens. How unsurprising. The article doesn't say there has been any peer-reviewed research to show a little screen time is harmful. It just says, oh, check it out, here is a grab bag of assholes, we picked out of a population of like 1 Million engineers, and THEY DONT LET THEIR KIDS USE SCREENS. Well guess what. I was a video game engineer for 10 year…

Your methodological criticisms are spot-on. > The same people that buy organic peas also have a paranoia about screens. How unsurprising. A lot of parents lack sophistication when it comes to "screen time". I have multiple in-laws who seem to not understand that it's what is on the screen that matters. As you predicted, those same people are also prone to magical thinking about other things: vaccination, fluoride, ra…

You almost lost me with

> "those same people are also prone to magical thinking about other things: vaccination, fluoride, radio waves, GMOs, etc."

because it is not remotely the the same people who are irrational about each of those things.

Glad I continued reading though, bc I like your "liquid" analogy which is apt. I do let my girls (age 10 and 11) play some games, but it's limited and as much about cultural literacy as their entertainment. They both love to read and spend probably 10h reading (mostly printed books but recently some kindle too) for every hour of tv or video games. Maybe instead of water vs alcohol, it's more a continuum from vegetables to candy. In any case, giving them some agency and trying to instill the foundation for them to make good choices -- ie, parenting -- is an ongoing and worthy challenge.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#235
post #226

Calling it "screen time" is missing the elephant in the room. The largest part of the problem is that the software we're directly interacting with has been designed by companies with interests directly contrary to ours! Social interaction will inherently set off more chemical rewards, but it is the tuning of the feedback loop (optimizing for micro-interactions) that keeps us glued. Emacs/mutt/libreoffice/python/kodi…

Maybe someday FOSS "veganism" will catch on.

With that analogy, I guess web browsers are cheese.

I don't think FOSS is even necessary for what I'm talking about (although it seems to be sufficient). Non-networked binary distribution of yore was also (mostly) aligned with the interests of its users.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's correct -- it's adults too. And the odds are against the average person. But I must point out it's not just data scientists we are up against -- it's psychologists, psychiatrists and medical doctors, addiction experts, experts in gaming theory, etc. All are employed in order to help make software and devices more "compelling". Remember when they used to ask how "sticky" is the app? Careful timing of rewards, t…

A repost from half year ago: I lived in Russia during the time when slot machines were literally standing in the open on the streets, and yes, mentally infirm people were wasting themselves on them. Normal people did not. It requires one to completely lack logic reasoning to not to understand that the the purpose of a slot machine is to waste his or her time and money. The same way, it requires a particular lack of b…

The problem is that it's not the "clickfarming" apps that are the real danger for the majority of people, I'd argue it's the endless algorithmically tailored content and social media streams most of us consume. The ones that fill our every - otherwise - idle moment with something to distract us with.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#237

The same people that buy organic peas also have a paranoia about screens. How unsurprising. The article doesn't say there has been any peer-reviewed research to show a little screen time is harmful. It just says, oh, check it out, here is a grab bag of assholes, we picked out of a population of like 1 Million engineers, and THEY DONT LET THEIR KIDS USE SCREENS. Well guess what. I was a video game engineer for 10 year…

Your methodological criticisms are spot-on. > The same people that buy organic peas also have a paranoia about screens. How unsurprising. A lot of parents lack sophistication when it comes to "screen time". I have multiple in-laws who seem to not understand that it's what is on the screen that matters. As you predicted, those same people are also prone to magical thinking about other things: vaccination, fluoride, ra…

> "there's nothing wrong with allowing near-infinite screen time ... it's not the screen that's the problem"

I beg to differ. Humans aren't built to sit and look at screens 1-2 feet from their face all day. There aren't infinite hours to choose from. There are 24 today. Every hour spent on the screen incurs a tremendous opportunity cost: exercise, adventure, socialization, cooking, grooming, sex, sleeping, etc.

Digital and real-world goods are not fungible because humans are embodied.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#238
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are specifically designed to function like a slot machine. I work in the gambling industry, making literally slot machines. Slot machines are heavily regulated and there is a lot of "engagement" tricks that can not be used in the gambling industry. The kind of trick that Candy Crush will use. The dangerous side of gambling is for people that think that they can "win money". But the games themselves are kind of…

You've gotten me wondering: Why AREN'T certain games subject to the same regulations as slot machines? Is that a state-by-state regulation? A federal regulation? And does the regulating code specifically mention physical machines? Thanks in advance for satisfying my curiosity.

Certain forms of video game dynamics: e.g. some loot box mechanics have recently been identified as being covered by gambling regulations in some nations.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-04-25-now-belgium-de...

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's correct -- it's adults too. And the odds are against the average person. But I must point out it's not just data scientists we are up against -- it's psychologists, psychiatrists and medical doctors, addiction experts, experts in gaming theory, etc. All are employed in order to help make software and devices more "compelling". Remember when they used to ask how "sticky" is the app? Careful timing of rewards, t…

A repost from half year ago: I lived in Russia during the time when slot machines were literally standing in the open on the streets, and yes, mentally infirm people were wasting themselves on them. Normal people did not. It requires one to completely lack logic reasoning to not to understand that the the purpose of a slot machine is to waste his or her time and money. The same way, it requires a particular lack of b…

In your own words: lack of logical reasoning?

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#240

Calling it "screen time" is missing the elephant in the room. The largest part of the problem is that the software we're directly interacting with has been designed by companies with interests directly contrary to ours! Social interaction will inherently set off more chemical rewards, but it is the tuning of the feedback loop (optimizing for micro-interactions) that keeps us glued. Emacs/mutt/libreoffice/python/kodi…

This is the conclusion that a lot of people on HN seem to be reaching. Now how do we go about filtering out the 'bad screen' while allowing the 'good screen?'

One good way to distinguish the two is whether or not it's pure consumption/entertainment or production/learning? I realize at times it may not be easy to do (e.g. watching cartoons or playing games that teach children something).
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