Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

processmechanics.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 245 posts

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#231

Post by mrep »

sneak wrote: post #156
gtycomb wrote: post #62

Only a data point here -- after I read about this license change on HN, it took me about 2 hours to struggle over the issue, discuss with my team, and switch from MongoDB to PostgreSql. We are very lucky in that we were into this project for only two months, prototyping and learning the ropes with MongoDB schema. With PostgreSql now, everyone feels secure in a familiar territory. Yes, we have to make changes and its…

Mongo doesn’t need a questionable license to make Postgres a better choice.

Bullshit, every software and business decision has tradeoffs. To universally claim one decision is better in all cases is ridiculous.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#232

Post by fatbird »

DannyBee wrote: post #206
fatbird wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same fight here, but we're digging in our heels and bothering to convince the internal lawyer that it's not a problem. We'll win, but it takes time we'd rather not have to spend.

What mongo says on a sales call is not going to be found usable in court.

The odds of anyone here ending up in court over licence terms for using Mongo as part of their backend, are so vanishingly small that to actually decide against Mongo on the basis of that chance amounts to professional malpractice.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#233

Post by PinkMilkshake »

politician wrote: post #213
metheus wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclosure: I work for MongoDB. You're in the right ballpark, for sure, but the SSPL addresses the difference explicitly. I'll use your example of Tumblr to clarify. Tumblr is built on some component technologies, like a database, an app framework, operating systems, backup systems, load balancing, etc. But Tumblr itself is not any of those things. Nor does it make any of its component technologies available to the p…

Technically, Tumblr provides persistence for ramblings and pictures and makes them available to the public. Tumblr is a brand wrapped around a database. I could do the same thing with a worse UI by hosting MongoDB on an open port.

And taps are just zero-length swipes!

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#234

Post by gaius »

fatbird wrote: post #20
nevi-me wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. If you take MongoDB and offer it as SaaS, the additional software that's part of your offering, such as monitoring, backup solutions, etc, have to be open-sourced, or you have to make their code available (since the chair of OSI defines what's open source).

I just had a call with MongoDB sales yesterday, and specifically asked if the licence changes impacts us, where we use Mongo as a datastore for our application, but we're not offering Mongo itself as a service. They were very quick and clear to say that the change is about those providers offering Mongo itself as a service. Using mongo in your stack to provide your service is not implicated at all. The only grey area…

those providers offering Mongo itself as a service

I can’t think of a single Mongo-as-a-service provider apart from Mongo themselves. None of the major clouds do it, neither do the also-rans like IBM or Oracle. So I call shenanigans on them.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#235

Post by gaius »

fatbird wrote: post #87
michaelcampbell wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes sense, and I believe you, but lawyers being lawyers, I don't think any corporate legal team is going to even bother with trying. Easier to say "no". Source: 1 data point; the company I work for's legal team just said "no".

Same fight here, but we're digging in our heels and bothering to convince the internal lawyer that it's not a problem. We'll win, but it takes time we'd rather not have to spend.

We'll win, but it takes time we'd rather not have to spend.

In a fraction of the time, you could convert to Postgres, with the added bonus that doing so will also be massively more fun than arguing with lawyers. Below, you mention professionalism too.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#236

Post by jillesvangurp »

metheus wrote: post #214
jillesvangurp wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that statement is that it is your company's lawyers interpretation of what it is all intended to mean. Yet, it's not certified by the OSS foundation and there are now loads of articles trying to interpret what it all means, which suggests to me that this is not a clear cut case of this being all that clear at all. Either way, your company is trying to actively restrict how the software is used even f…

Much of what you say about the lack of clarity is fair, but we hope that those things will be resolved when the SSPL gains OSI certification. In the meanwhile, we will do our best to 1) listen closely to the specific arguments as to what is unclear, and 2) attempt to dispel what we see as misunderstandings, often prompted by what is essentially FUD. I appreciate your suggestions on what other licensing options we hav…

> I think this is unfair

I'm just parroting the sentiments here. This is how this move is perceived.

I think your CTO is wrong on this. This situation is not something that is going to improve with more blog posts, explations, or proclamations from your c level executives.

So, a wise move would be to roll this back ASAP and withdraw the SSPL.

This license is no a solution to Mongo's revenue problems and may actually make things worse. It sure doesn't solve any problems your users are having so whatever this is, it is not in their interest.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#237

Post by fwiw1 »

gaius wrote: post #137
simias wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You use their code for free and call them "idiotic or malevolent" when they make it harder for you to use their code for free. I can completely understand the frustration of their users if this move makes their life harder but it's still pretty entitled of you to insult them because they changed the license to something you don't like. It's perfectly understandable if you decide not to use their software because you…

You use their code for free and call them "idiotic or malevolent" when they make it harder for you to use their code for free. MongoDB is little more than mmap() attached to a socket. They would be nowhere without piggybacking on a million lines of other people’s free code.

MongoDB uses WiredTiger storage engine currently. mmap storage engine is all but deprecated.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#238

Post by fwiw1 »

bayareasguy wrote: post #210
mindcrime wrote: post #16

Yeah, I'm not necessarily opposed to the general spirit of what they're trying to do here, but this license just doesn't make sense in practice. Now that I've had more time to look at it, I'd really recommend that everybody stay the f%!# away from MongoDB. This bit in particular really hits the nail on the head: Let's assume that it is ok somehow to pass forward other open source software, solving that problem. What…

There are many arguments provided as justification for this new license - they seem specious in my opinion 1. Big cloud vendors are making money off MongoDB's investment Completely untrue. The big three - AWS, Azure and GCP dont have a MongoDB as a service solution. The only commercial entity making any real money off MongoDB is MongoDB, Inc. AGPL has achieved its purpose here. The only big cloud vendor with a soluti…

Isn't Rackspace the owner of ObjectRocket?

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#239

Post by fwiw1 »

macintux wrote: post #31
ilikechairs wrote: post #10

I never understood all the hate mongo gets. Like any tool, if people simply took the time to understand it and use it correctly, maybe they wouldn't run into issues.

MongoDB made some very sketchy, undocumented (or poorly documented) technical decisions in its early years that placed data at great risk. It's better now, but very few things worry technical people more than a database that loses data. It's hard to get past that early impression.

Quite easy, actually. Those that started using MongoDB in the last 5 years had little bias or negative experience, and are generally happy users.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#240

Post by fwiw1 »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #67
macintux wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MongoDB made some very sketchy, undocumented (or poorly documented) technical decisions in its early years that placed data at great risk. It's better now, but very few things worry technical people more than a database that loses data. It's hard to get past that early impression.

early? > This interpretation hinges on interpreting successful sub-majority writes as not necessarily successful: rather, a successful response is merely a suggestion that the write has probably occurred, or might later occur, or perhaps will occur, be visible to some clients, then un-occur, or perhaps nothing will happen whatsoever. > We note that this remains MongoDB's default level of write safety. - http://jepsen…

So a user selects the write safety level they wish. Ok.
Post reply on HN