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The City of Seattle Accidentally Gave Me 32M Emails for $40

mchap.io

231–239 of 239 posts

Re: The City of Seattle Accidentally Gave Me 32M Emails for $40

#231
post #76

I was quoted almost $200k for a similar request for emails. I was trying to investigate a shady real estate deal, and they made it as difficult as possible. I was never actually able to get the information I requested. I'm completely disgusted and fed up with corruption.

Perhaps try and sell the story with some of the investigative podcasts / blogs? An apparent cover-up gets as much attraction as uncovered corruption. (As well it should).

I'm now convinced that there is no amount of evidence of wrongdoing that will actually harm crooked politicians. They control the narrative, and the courts.

I don't want to end up bone saw murdered, and it feels more likely every day.

Re: The City of Seattle Accidentally Gave Me 32M Emails for $40

#232
post #170
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember when Shoreline had to pay out ~$500k because of mistakes they made on a FOIA request? https://www.rcfp.org/browse-media-law-resources/news/city-mu... It's because Washington agencies are required to cover reasonable attorneys fees for their opponents after losing open records lawsuits (one of the factors in our FOIA laws) So when Author sent the request to Seattle, they have this above cited example (and 100…

> In short, if Seattle fucked up this FOIA request, denied or delayed -- that could have cost them millions of dollars. Sorry, but that sounds like bullshit. The Washington law provides for agencies to take reasonable time on a request, especially one a request that is complicated and broad. In fact, unlike the FOI law for federal and other states, the Washington law does not proscribe the number of days that an agen…

SEATTLE – The Washington Supreme Court has upheld a $502,000 penalty for Public Records Act violations by the state Department of Labor and Industries, in a ruling which affirms that judges can calculate such fines based on each page of a withheld record.

Another example in WA, the kind of thing that scares public sector employees.

I have direct personal experience with this, and direct knowledge of others receiving payout from government (in WA) for similar violations (almost had to start another suit this month).

Your narrow interpretation is splitting hairs. The danger is real to the government workers executing these requests

Edit: two more easy to find examples

https://www.aclu.org/news/judge-fines-tacoma-police-departme...

www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/mar/24/justices-uphold-502000-public-records-fine-against/?amp-content=amp

Re: The City of Seattle Accidentally Gave Me 32M Emails for $40

#233
post #232
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In short, if Seattle fucked up this FOIA request, denied or delayed -- that could have cost them millions of dollars. Sorry, but that sounds like bullshit. The Washington law provides for agencies to take reasonable time on a request, especially one a request that is complicated and broad. In fact, unlike the FOI law for federal and other states, the Washington law does not proscribe the number of days that an agen…

SEATTLE – The Washington Supreme Court has upheld a $502,000 penalty for Public Records Act violations by the state Department of Labor and Industries, in a ruling which affirms that judges can calculate such fines based on each page of a withheld record. Another example in WA, the kind of thing that scares public sector employees. I have direct personal experience with this, and direct knowledge of others receiving…

Sorry, I don't understand what your argument is. Both articles you link to refer to large penalties imposed against government agencies for withholding the requested records, over a long period of time.

In your original comment [0], you suggested that employees feared of making innocent mistakes that would lead to open records lawsuits. None of the examples you've provided describe that situation. Instead, they involve agencies (and their lawyers) who have decided to refuse a request and fight it out in the courts. What does that have to do with being a danger to employees who handle these requests?

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18267039

Re: The City of Seattle Accidentally Gave Me 32M Emails for $40

#234

> Especially with the use of Excel, which would be useful for removing duplicates, etc. Excel can only handle about 1 million rows, right?

Nah its not limited except by memory anymore AFAIK.

Ah, spinning beachball time then.

Re: The City of Seattle Accidentally Gave Me 32M Emails for $40

#236
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Washington State Public Records Act, which this request was made under, states its spirit very unambiguously: The people of this state do not yield their sovereignty to the agencies that serve them. The people, in delegating authority, do not give their public servants the right to decide what is good for the people to know and what is not good for them to know. The people insist on remaining informed so that the…

Beautifully put. This information is _there_ whether we like it or not. I’d rather have as much access to it as a government employee than none at all.

[deleted]

Re: The City of Seattle Accidentally Gave Me 32M Emails for $40

#237
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really shocked by this? I guess you have never worked on a corporate email system! People do this all of the time. 1) They don't realise email is not secure 2) When you explain point 1, all of the other solutions seem like too much hassle so they email anyway. 3) You can tell your customers not to email you CC numbers, you can even refuse them, but they will keep sending them

...and if you provide online chat with customer support or sales, people will send credit cards in that too. If you have customer accessible support ticket submission system, that will end up with credit cards too. The Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard (PCI DSS) that you have to agree to follow in order to be allowed to process credit cards requires secure storage of all the cards you store--not just the c…

That is a very good point

Re: The City of Seattle Accidentally Gave Me 32M Emails for $40

#238
post #233
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SEATTLE – The Washington Supreme Court has upheld a $502,000 penalty for Public Records Act violations by the state Department of Labor and Industries, in a ruling which affirms that judges can calculate such fines based on each page of a withheld record. Another example in WA, the kind of thing that scares public sector employees. I have direct personal experience with this, and direct knowledge of others receiving…

Sorry, I don't understand what your argument is. Both articles you link to refer to large penalties imposed against government agencies for withholding the requested records, over a long period of time. In your original comment [0], you suggested that employees feared of making innocent mistakes that would lead to open records lawsuits. None of the examples you've provided describe that situation. Instead, they invol…

Well, spend some time with those employees, they know about these cases.

This means that these employees frequently send more, faster to avoid a big public issue.

The point is that individual people feel pressure and make decisions based on these articles (and many not so public cases) that in retrospect are not that great.

And then some blogger makes foolish claims, as if it was incompetence rather than fear.

I'll not comment further

Re: The City of Seattle Accidentally Gave Me 32M Emails for $40

#239
post #238
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I don't understand what your argument is. Both articles you link to refer to large penalties imposed against government agencies for withholding the requested records, over a long period of time. In your original comment [0], you suggested that employees feared of making innocent mistakes that would lead to open records lawsuits. None of the examples you've provided describe that situation. Instead, they invol…

Well, spend some time with those employees, they know about these cases. This means that these employees frequently send more, faster to avoid a big public issue. The point is that individual people feel pressure and make decisions based on these articles (and many not so public cases) that in retrospect are not that great. And then some blogger makes foolish claims, as if it was incompetence rather than fear. I'll n…

I've sent quite a few FOI requests myself when I was a reporter, and my experience biases me against thinking there's a significant problem of state employees sending out FOIAs quickly/prematurely out of fear. In fact, I've never dealt with an employee who broke protocol -- for non-routine requests, the vast majority of them consult with their FOI officer/legal counsel. And they have no incentive to rush things because most FOI laws allow for a delay in response time -- Washington's law doesn't even have a set time limit in which the government has to respond.

> The point is that individual people feel pressure and make decisions based on these articles

That is literally the situation of every public servant -- as just about any police officer will tell you. The difference with FOI is that the law provides ample protection for government employees to take their time to get it right, and every investigative journalist I've ever worked with puts up with those delays -- it's only when the delay goes into months/years such that it's tantamount to a rejection that legal action is threatened, because the lawsuit itself takes months to resolve.

The only example lawsuits you've found were ones in which the agencies refused to fulfill the request. Until you can show a single instance in which a state employee, or even an agency, was punished because they were late while trying to respond in good faith, I don't think we should assume you know what you're talking about when you claim the author has "no background/understanding" of WA's public records laws.

It's especially absurd that you're trying to argue that the mistake the city of Seattle made in his case was done out of hurried fear, when the author provides correspondence that shows he and the city emailed back-and-forth from April to August before they sent him the data. A technical screwup (via internal miscommunication) is the most plausible explanation by far, as no one in the IT or FOI office had any reason to rush this request.

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