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Let Teenagers Sleep In

nytimes.com

231–240 of 317 posts

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rules made by 55 year old early risers that only need 6 hours of sleep a night who have become school officials are just cruel and unusual punishment to a chunk of teenagers out there. In a better world there could be a class action lawsuit to make this stop--but its still considered okay to promote "early to bed, early to rise" and flat-out discriminate against people with sleep disorders. tbh, i doubt the time th…

If kids can’t get themselves to school by their teenage years, something is horrifically wrong with your urban planning. A school should serve the houses 1-2 miles around. My daily treks to middle and high school were parades of pedestrians, bikes, and kick scooters through the suburban streets.

> A school should serve the houses 1-2 miles around.

This tends to be how suburban elementary schools are, but high schools require more resources per school (for all the facilities for sports and enrichment programs), so there are fewer, larger high schools.

Having one high school serve only a 1-2 mile area would only work out if you have a bunch of 100-story condos in the 1-2 mile area. Otherwise, where are all these kids even coming from?

I grew up in a town of 50,000 people. The population density of it, according to Wikipedia, is 1,082/sq mi. The town has three high schools to serve its population, and they're all just about full. If it had more schools, though, then each school would have less than 200 students apiee. Where would the budget for these schools' facilities come from?

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#232

Wouldn't the average teenager just stay up even longer? It's not like they are hardcoded to wake up at a certain clock time. I think it would make much more sense to change the content of school during those years to reflect the interests of students better. Let them take a break, do something practical, do projects, etc. instead of trying to cram facts into their heads. A lot of stuff I headed to learn when I was 13…

I don't know why this doesn't get brought up in every one of these conversations.

As someone who was recently a teenager, if school started an hour later, I would have stayed up another hour. Most of my friends were the same way.

One of the things people seem to miss is late nights are generally when teenagers have the most freedom. With your parents asleep no one is awake to bother you.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#233

I used to need 9.5 hours of sleep as a teenager and probably had diagnosable delayed sleep phase disorder. Rules made by 55 year old early risers that only need 6 hours of sleep a night who have become school officials are just cruel and unusual punishment to a chunk of teenagers out there. In a better world there could be a class action lawsuit to make this stop--but its still considered okay to promote "early to be…

I used to believe like you do. What I believed to be my natural schedule--what I naturally gravitated to--was the nite-owl 1am to between 9-10am or so sleep schedule. In school, I always felt sleep deprived when I had to wake up around 6.

But I recently spent the better part of five months going to bed at 9:30pm and waking up at 4:30am. Despite getting less sleep overall, I've never felt as well rested or alert throughout the day as I did during those five months and I've never had an easier time getting to sleep. The key, for me, was also modifying my eating schedule and screen usage (computer, phone, TV). I often wonder how many people who simply accept that they're naturally nite owls are using blue-light-emitting screens late into the night and eating their last meal of the day so late that their body isn't ready for sleep. Because I know that once I adjusted those aspects of my life, my sleep schedule magically responded.

The difficulty in maintaining that schedule has been societal pressures. Those five months were spent living outside of a city where noise, light and social norms around dinner time all make it very difficult to maintain while having any sort of social life. I'm still searching for a way to reconcile my sleep schedule with my intended lifestyle.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#234
post #167
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Our night vision is actually pretty good It isn't good enough to see what's going on when it's actually pitch black, which it is most of the time at night. > Fire Lighting a fire at night in the place where you're having sex seems like a pretty good way to get discovered. > Having a multitude of waking/restful cycles in a group kept our ancestors protected with a nearly round the clock group of protectors - who ever…

Matthew Walker, PhD in his book "Why We Sleep" discussed sleep cycles and their variances from one person to the next. Specifically, during his discussion of circadian rhythm in chapter 2. From page 22: "As a social species, should we not all be synchronized and therefore awake at the same time to promote maximal human interactions? Perhaps not. As we'll discover later in this book, humans likely evolved to co-sleep…

I have a PhD, though it isn't in neurology. Speculations don't become any more plausible just because the person making the speculation has a PhD.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Have you tried waking up at the same time every day -- absolutely NO exceptions -- for a period of 2+ weeks? (Along with this, no snoozing and get up as quickly as possible after your alarm goes off, even if you're a zombie and won't be able to actually do anything for another hour or two). I ask as a person who's been on both sides of the fence, from 8pm nights and 4am mornings to 4am nights and 1pm…

I have to do the following: - I can't eat any junk food pretty much at all (pizza is a particular trigger food -- salt/MSG, i dunno?) - I can't eat anything late - I have to take a melatonin an hour before bedtime - At least 20 minutes before bedtime I have to put on a sleep mask and just start really winding down. Often this is more like 60 minutes before bedtime. This is just lying on my back and not really trying…

> we've all collectively heard nearly everything that you can suggest

Have you heard it suggested that insomnia is frequently a symptom of ADHD?

I have ADHD. It was undiagnosed until I was 22. And, through my whole life until that point, my sleep was "delicate" in the way you're describing, requiring careful set-up to avoid insomnia.

Then I was diagnosed with, and medicated for, ADHD. Sleep is pretty easy now. No care required.

One reason for that might be the way the medication (which I take in the morning) affects me as it's wearing off in the evening—it creates a feeling which is sort of the opposite of insomnia. With insomnia, there's a grating sensation that comes from the fact that you're still awake and a weariness demanding you sleep, but your brain won't shut up, so you can't. With the stimulant dose end-phase, meanwhile, there's no sensation of tiredness at all, but your brain is very quiet, not spontaneously thinking anything (in fact it's rather hard to spontaneously think), so you can fall asleep, even though there's no compulsion to. You just decide to, and then... you do.

Another reason might be that ADHD is apparently the brain being stuck in a state below the average behavioral-arousal set-point—essentially, being always half-asleep. As such, you don't get tired when you "should", because your brain wasn't working as hard. A car that stays in neutral half the time will still have a half-full gas tank at the end of the day. (This is also why people advise exercise for insomnia, but physical exercise doesn't really cause a brain with ADHD to engage any more than usual.) Whereas, a brain with ADHD that is fed a stimulant, will have its behavioral arousal level modified toward the normal level, expending more metabolic energy throughout the day, generating more waste products, and thereby reaching a point where it demands to enter a maintenance phase (sleep) sooner.

No matter the reason, I have to say that it works.

Interestingly, according to my psychiatrist, even if you don't think you have ADHD, other neurologically-founded sleep disorders (e.g. narcolepsy) are mostly thought to be disorders of behavioural activation as well—and, as such, are treated with stimulants, just like ADHD. They may as well all be different presentations of the same underlying pathology, given that the treatments for them are interchangeable.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#236
post #208
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leftover customs from agricultural society, that have become subconscious moralistic norms. If you sleep the daylight hours away on the farm, you will get less productive work done. After ten generations of this, there will be unspoken and unconscious rules about what sort of sleep schedules are acceptable. These don't go away by themselves.

Farming isn't and never was, the only occupation in the world. So, simple solution - Don't be a farmer. Be a night guard or something. This is really like the kind of problem we have today. We only have some 5 most popular professions in the world, so people are rigged to cater to the customs of these 5 professions. Everyone else is just "lazy"!

Historically a much greater portion of the population was involved with agriculture (75% of the working population)[1] at a time when artificial light was both relatively poor quality and very expensive.

Given those constraints it makes sense that there was massive societal pressure to maximize the hours the sun did shine. Looking at the charts on that site also brought home how relatively recent the shift to non farm based employment really was (a couple generations). Even that probably fails to account for large behavioral changes: for example my great grandparents had a "garden" that was at least an order of magnitude larger than any suburban garden I've seen in the last decade. They weren't "farmers", just poor and the extra food they grew and canned was a huge help.

1 - https://ourworldindata.org/employment-in-agriculture

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#237
This rings so true to me.

Throughout high school I had the worst attendance record in the entire grade. For a few days after having stayed home, though, I was much sharper than the other sleepy kids. Then I started to feel tired again.

Come on.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a non-24 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake... ). I consistently drift forwards 1-2 hours / day. Nobody believes me when I tell them. I started seriously tracking my sleep a few months back, and two months ago I started to use "Sleep as Android", which has a neat feature that shows you a graph of the times you are asleep. This is mine for the past 2 months: https://i.imgur.com/PHohyO6.…

I have similarly experienced non 24 on a roughly 26 hr cycle. I'm curious if you've had your vitamin D levels checked? Mine were abysmal, <13 ng/mL. I've been working on improving that with both a supplement and regular sun exposure. I'm not "fixed", but staying up feels much more like a conscious decision and less like it's out of my control.

I haven't. I'll check this out, thank you :)

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#239
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If kids can’t get themselves to school by their teenage years, something is horrifically wrong with your urban planning. A school should serve the houses 1-2 miles around. My daily treks to middle and high school were parades of pedestrians, bikes, and kick scooters through the suburban streets.

> A school should serve the houses 1-2 miles around. This tends to be how suburban elementary schools are, but high schools require more resources per school (for all the facilities for sports and enrichment programs), so there are fewer, larger high schools. Having one high school serve only a 1-2 mile area would only work out if you have a bunch of 100-story condos in the 1-2 mile area. Otherwise, where are all the…

Condo towers? The suburb I grew up in was all single family homes with 2-car garages, 6,600 people per square mile and 14,000 people total. We have one high school in the center with ~900 students. Walkable for all of them. There are two elementary schools around half that size with even smaller coverage areas.

We were unambiguously a suburb. 1/6th that density would have been nightmarish sprawl. Berkeley, also mostly suburban, is 12,000 per square mile! That’s my point.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rules made by 55 year old early risers that only need 6 hours of sleep a night who have become school officials are just cruel and unusual punishment to a chunk of teenagers out there. In a better world there could be a class action lawsuit to make this stop--but its still considered okay to promote "early to bed, early to rise" and flat-out discriminate against people with sleep disorders. tbh, i doubt the time th…

If kids can’t get themselves to school by their teenage years, something is horrifically wrong with your urban planning. A school should serve the houses 1-2 miles around. My daily treks to middle and high school were parades of pedestrians, bikes, and kick scooters through the suburban streets.

Rural school districts might serve a 20-30 mile radius. You have to drive or ride the bus.
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