Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#231

Post by maze-le » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 11:09 AM UTC

allenofthehills wrote: post #93

Kye wrote: post #58

This article is aimed at religious people. It's fine. Good writers know their audience and write to them. This would make a fine sermon or lecture. But you can see how the context collapse has led to lots of snark here. My advice: read it with the understanding that it's not for you (or me), and that it offers a perspective you might not have gotten if it targeted a more general audience. Seneca might have been writi…

> This article is aimed at religious people. I didn't get that at all. I think the author was trying to explain that the concept of the Sabbath (ie take a day of rest) has important psychological and societal value, irrespective of its religious origins.

Yep, I concur. As an atheist I am as detached from religion as you can get, and I still think this article has some valuable insight. I know it from experience, as I am from Germany and most workers actually do have Sundays off (there are exceptions of course: doctors, nurses, gas station workers, police officers...). In retrospective, I very much appreciated having it as a kid. My parents were pretty busy otherwise but Sundays were always different and brought us together as a family.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#232

Post by yodsanklai » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 11:14 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #154

kaybe wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany almost every shop is closed on Sundays, with a similar idea behind it. Only the most necessary jobs are done (firefighters and hospital workers) and there is free time for everyone to relax. Now just to tone down the electricity usage.. (but actually Sundays is a good day to use electricity in your home because the commercial use is so much lower)

My problem is laws dictating it. Perhaps I want to open my store on Sunday: why is it government’s business? Shouldn’t freedom matter? When I was in France, mandatory closing was horrible. It isn’t like I can go to the French equivalent of Home Depot during the work day. There is always Saturday, but effectively limiting by law to one shopping day per week is ridiculous. It should be the choice of the business owner…

> When I was in France, mandatory closing was horrible.

You get used to it. It's not like French people can't buy stuff the other 6 days of the week.

> It should be the choice of the business owner and the consumer what they’d like to do.

Not that simple as there are several externalities. Suppose you're a business owner and your competitor opens on Sunday. You suddenly have no other choice than opening on Sunday as well.

I appreciate the convenience of shops being open all the time when I travel to the US or Asia. But I believe it makes a lot of people miserable and it's not a necessity.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#233

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 11:20 AM UTC

lsc wrote: post #221

leyth wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard about converting to Judaism. If it is an ethnicity how can that be possible?

>I’ve heard about converting to Judaism. If it is an ethnicity how can that be possible? I am not qualified to offer an opinion on Judaism specifically, but people have been "converting" to different ethnicities for all of recorded history. I personally have a Scottish last name; but that branch of my family is catholic, which is a little unusual, but not impossible. Tracing back the paperwork, my "Scottish' ancestor…

Scots are a people group, Irish Scots are a thing. Indeed, my understanding is that Irish Scots invaded Gwynedd in N.Wales after the Roman departure. The Tudors -- the English Royal family, Henry VII & VIII -- hail from Gwynedd, so they're Welsh English Irish Scots (from Scandinavia before that I imagine?).

Anyway, lying and converting seem different. Assuming an identity as a Jew and being a Jew are surely different.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#234

Post by devdas » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 11:23 AM UTC

kaybe wrote: post #138

1337biz wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also sounds like the perfect antidode to social isolation, eg having to meet with people who live nearby, nobody on a hard schedule, common activities and practices, etc.

In Germany almost every shop is closed on Sundays, with a similar idea behind it. Only the most necessary jobs are done (firefighters and hospital workers) and there is free time for everyone to relax. Now just to tone down the electricity usage.. (but actually Sundays is a good day to use electricity in your home because the commercial use is so much lower)

Unless you need to do something on a Sunday which depends on other people being available (I was delayed checking out of a hotel because reception opened late, without it being mentioned, which made me miss my train, and then flight since there wasn't a backup train on a Sunday).

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#235

Post by kaybe » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 11:23 AM UTC

billfruit wrote: post #174

oldandtired wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more than just the owner and consumer involved here. it also includes any staff that the owner employs. If you, as an owner, decide that you want to open 7 days a week, and you have staff that are happy to do 6 days and want/desire the 7th day off, what do you do in relation to those staff? Sack them? Employ others for that 7th day who are willing to work on that day and keep the others on for the other 6 da…

I think most 7day employers like retailers having rotating staff rosters, so that the employees will be doing 4-5 day weeks only. In fact perhaps having a mandatory closed holiday may mean that many people wouldn't have the jobs they have now.

It's not like the population will buy more things if you open one more day though (not sure how online shopping plays into this). So your revenue will just be spread out over more time, and your costs will be higher since you have to keep the shop open one more day.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#236

Post by carbocation » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 11:37 AM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #227

carbocation wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike smoking, which all humans can survive without, society hasn't yet been configured in a way where we can survive and improve our lot without work. So, even if your point -- that disconnecting one day a week is still 90% as bad as disconnecting all the time -- were to be true, it's also moot because that's not an option. If your point is conditioned upon technology, rather than work, I would ask you to determine…

Isn't the concept of a weekend at least as old as Sabbath, ie thousands of years?

Yes, but it was only recently “won”: that is, most of western society has had two days off per week (to varying degrees) for just over 100 years if my recollection is right.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#237

Post by devdas » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 11:38 AM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #191

yoz-y wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have the same thing in France with some weird exception for Paris. I was really glad when I moved to paris and could finally found a shop open at a time when it suited actually employed people. I strongly believe that people's work times should be as desynchronised as possible which would not only make it easier for everybody to handle administrative stuff without having to take off-time from work, but would also…

I find this position to be woefully lacking in cultural perspective. What is it about we Engineers that we want to put everything in such mechanical terms, like 'handling admin' and 'congestion'? There are considerable advantages in having most people off on the same time, not the least of bit the inherent deeper relaxation of knowing the rest of the world is off. It's completely another experience when everyone else…

> It's completely another experience when everyone else is down, than when 'just you' are down.

It's stressful and not relaxing.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#238

Post by devdas » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 11:41 AM UTC

detaro wrote: post #70

TulliusCicero wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, just moved here a couple years ago from the states. Most people I know here seem to think it's annoying, but I work at Google, so we got people from all over, I don't think Germans are even a majority of the devs. edit: apparently 61% of Germans think stores should be able to decide themselves whether to open on Sundays: http://m.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/service/einzelhandel-mehrheit...

I'd be curious if and how those numbers change when it is instead "companies should be able to decide themselves if they are open on Sundays". Anecdotally, that question complicates it for quite a few people, despite probably being the fairer change.

I would be far happier working on weekends, and having my weekend in the middle of the week.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#239

Post by lsc » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 11:47 AM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #233

lsc wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’ve heard about converting to Judaism. If it is an ethnicity how can that be possible? I am not qualified to offer an opinion on Judaism specifically, but people have been "converting" to different ethnicities for all of recorded history. I personally have a Scottish last name; but that branch of my family is catholic, which is a little unusual, but not impossible. Tracing back the paperwork, my "Scottish' ancestor…

Scots are a people group, Irish Scots are a thing. Indeed, my understanding is that Irish Scots invaded Gwynedd in N.Wales after the Roman departure. The Tudors -- the English Royal family, Henry VII & VIII -- hail from Gwynedd, so they're Welsh English Irish Scots (from Scandinavia before that I imagine?). Anyway, lying and converting seem different. Assuming an identity as a Jew and being a Jew are surely different…

sure, but my point is, who decides what ethnicity you are? I mean, your average man on the street, when asked to identify ethnicity is still pretty much with Blumenbach; "what do you look like?"

Functionally, there is what ethnicity you say you are, and what ethnicity other people see you as.

I don't have a complete picture of my genealogy, and even if I did, even if I could say I was descended from some ur-scott and you could say the same of all of my other ancestors, you're still just pushing the problem back in time. People migrate. People have been migrating for as long as people have been people; You could, with enough work, figure out that some of my ancestors were in country X at time Y... but I don't think that is going to line up with your common definition of ethnicity.

If I think I'm ethnicity X and if most people perceive me as ethnicity X... well, then I very clearly am ethnicity X... regardless of what my great great grandparents may or may not have been.

It's more complex if I think I'm X but others perceive me as Y... but it's still all about perception, as far as I can tell.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#240

Post by coaxial » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 12:15 PM UTC

jliptzin wrote: post #198

gavman wrote: post #35

As an Orthodox Jew who observes the Sabbath every week, while sometimes finishing up work and preparations beforehand can be stressful at times, there's no feeling like turning off all phones/laptops/etc Friday evening and leaving it all behind. There's a supreme serenity that comes with the knowledge of "I can't do anything about it, so there's no point in worrying". As soon as Sabbath starts I'm totally focused on…

I am Jewish and don't observe but know a lot that do and also talk about how great it is to be able to leave everything behind on the Sabbath. I can definitely see the value in disconnecting one day a week. However, they also do a lot of really weird things that I can imagine creates even more stress, just for the sake of interpreting religious law as strictly as possible. For example, my friend's cousin accidentally…

My oven has a Shabbat mode: when you activate this mode, touching the controls doesn't make any sound anymore, opening the oven door doesn't trigger the light, and when touching a button the effect is delayed by a few seconds so you're not technically getting any result from touching the button while still getting the effect from touching the button.