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Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Go First

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Re: Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Go First

#231

There are technical solutions to all of this. I come from a country that has been fighting back the sea for centuries (Netherlands) and that has been exporting it's knowledge to do so for a long time as well. The basic consensus is that we'll need bigger dikes and a few other things over the next decades. Plenty of time to build that. Not a problem. At least not in places that can afford to invest in solutions. Basic…

Dikes don't work in Miami because the ground is too porous.

Not only that, the article is about the fresh water supply and to protect that would need a dike around most of south Florida (and all the interior rivers if that were possible given the limestone) and part of the Everglades.

Re: Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Go First

#232

Have we seen any sea level rise in the US yet? I think people would buy into it more once we have pictures of roads and buildings being hit by water at high tide.

Parts of Miami flood during every king tide and it didn't always happen, also every Miami road project builds the new roads higher. (2014) https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/us/florida-finds-itself-i... It doesn't change a whole lot of people's minds, out of sight, out of mind.

Re: Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Go First

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People also sometimes cherry-pick or carve up data so that they can find a "surprising" result, to use one of ~pg's favorite adjectives. Your coworker had the impression that wildfires are becoming larger and more damaging, and that climate change is a principal cause of this, due to widespread coverage to that effect (examples: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]). (Which I suppose was your point.) And many of those journalists…

I also used the NIFC data. I mis-spoke on a couple of points. First, I only used data from 1983 and later (not the 1960s as I said, and certainly not prior to the 1950s as you assert that some people do) because their footnote said that the sources for data prior to 1983 are not known or can't be confirmed. Second, I graphed the data since 1983 and there was somewhat of a trend upwards (not no trend like I said). But…

> Only that people tend to accept narratives that are repeated over and over without critically questioning them.

Sure, but the challenge is that critically questioning a common narrative takes significantly more effort than a quick review of a single dataset, especially when that narrative is coming from a fairly large body of professional researchers in multiple fields.

This is a big problem right now in the politics surrounding several different fields. A lot of interested laymen now have the tools to do some quick analysis on datasets, and then they draw conclusions from that that are contrary to the accepted science in that field. It's especially common in climate science because it's always been such a politically charged topic.

People accepting common narratives is essentially "epistemic learned helplessness" (http://web.archive.org/web/20130111103623/http://squid314.li..., one of my favorite essays), and that's a good thing. It's an immune response to bad ideas like being opposed to vaccination.

There is certainly room for asking questions about accepted ideas. Any time something doesn't make sense in some subject, absolutely go searching for an answer. You may even get to be one of the fortunate and talented few who find a significant question or even a flaw in some field. But, there's a fine line between asking questions, and drawing conclusions from a brief review and then indicting other people for not "critically" examining the subject.

Re: Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Go First

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also used the NIFC data. I mis-spoke on a couple of points. First, I only used data from 1983 and later (not the 1960s as I said, and certainly not prior to the 1950s as you assert that some people do) because their footnote said that the sources for data prior to 1983 are not known or can't be confirmed. Second, I graphed the data since 1983 and there was somewhat of a trend upwards (not no trend like I said). But…

> Only that people tend to accept narratives that are repeated over and over without critically questioning them. Sure, but the challenge is that critically questioning a common narrative takes significantly more effort than a quick review of a single dataset, especially when that narrative is coming from a fairly large body of professional researchers in multiple fields. This is a big problem right now in the politi…

I didn’t draw a conclusion. This is now the third time that I’ve pointed that out. It seems like you badly need me to do that to make your point somehow. Is this causing you to not see it when I write it?

Secondly I’m not sure I’m “indicting” anyone. Only observing that there was absolutely zero knowledge about facts behind the situation and no ability to respond to my two minute gathering of facts. This isn’t an indication of a lack of critical thinking. It’s an indication of a lack of thinking of any kind whatsoever.

Re: Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Go First

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence for this claim?

Here are a couple articles I've found about MS and NE: 1. https://mississippitoday.org/2016/07/13/mississippi-brain-dr... 2. https://www.omaha.com/news/education/higher-education/nebras... College-educated workers want and need to live in more urban areas that have employers in future-forward industries. From a cultural aspect, I think these people also want to live in municipalities (up to state government) that are…

I can't speak for the rest of the state, but I can tell you for certain that northern Mississippi (and at least some parts just south of it) has generally been booming. In fact, the "Gold Rush" may have slowed down quite a bit by now, but for a while there it was hard to keep people from surrounding states from pulling up stakes and moving there, for various reasons. Wages are somewhat lower, true, but then so is the cost of living. And if you pick the right location, you can be within easy driving distance of a "more urban area" while still living "out in the country", if you want to.

Re: Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Go First

#236
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Greenland melts, you get 6 meters (20 feet).[1] 1: https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/quickfacts/icesheets.html

Greenland is melting. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/20...

Check this out for real time data about the Greenland ice mass budget. (Spoiler: Greenland is not melting)

https://www.dmi.dk/en/groenland/maalinger/greenland-ice-shee...

Re: Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Go First

#237
post #3

I’ve never understood how the parts of the country most affected by sea level rise have been so vociferously against it being real. When the BP spill happened and they had all the local mayors and politicians crying about the damage to their coast, I couldn’t understand why no one had the cajones to ask them why they cared so much about their coast being damaged now, when they were completely fine with it being gone…

It's "cojones" :-)

:-) I blame a former manager. His automatically generated username (first two letters of first name + surname) was cajones, so that’s what he got called. And now I’ve automatically spelt it wrong ever since.

Re: Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Go First

#238

This article is kind of infuriating. Just bring the facts up and talk about them, instead of describing people. I think this is one of the more critical parts (along with the stuff about water supply getting contaminated): > Barring a stupendous reversal in greenhouse gas emissions, the rising Atlantic will cover much of Miami by the end of this century. The economic effects will be devastating: Zillow Inc. estimates…

> Would a giant sea wall work? No. Miami (and pretty much all of South Florida) sits on top of a sand bar on top of porous limestone rock. The ocean will just come up through the limestone rock and through the sand no matter how tall your sea wall is.

Is that also true if the wall is say 5 km wide? (as some plans for the Netherlands propose).

Re: Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Go First

#239
post #162

This article is kind of infuriating. Just bring the facts up and talk about them, instead of describing people. I think this is one of the more critical parts (along with the stuff about water supply getting contaminated): > Barring a stupendous reversal in greenhouse gas emissions, the rising Atlantic will cover much of Miami by the end of this century. The economic effects will be devastating: Zillow Inc. estimates…

> Barring a stupendous reversal in greenhouse gas emissions, the rising Atlantic will cover much of Miami by the end of this century. Note that your home does not need to be permanently underwater to have it destroyed by a storm. Not even a hurricane-type thing; there are parts of Miami that require permanent water pumps today to stay dry. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/...

The flooding referenced is the kind of thing that happens when you build infrastructure that is below sea level to begin with. (!?!) And then put in a drainage pipe system that allows water to flow out quickly during low tides, but lacks the check valves needed to prevent that water from flowing back in just as quickly during high tides. (!?!)

Re: Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Go First

#240
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point in time people who deny climate change is occurring are impervious to logic and reason. They are like people who deny evolution or the people who believe the Earth is around 10,000 years old. Nothing is going to convince them they are wrong. It's too burdensome to ask that all articles about the detrimental effects of climate change present a proof of said claims. At some point in time it's pointless to…

It is actually more than pointless to argue with these people, as many of them actively engage in conspiracy theories: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla... I personally know someone with the belief that climate change is a political conspiracy. Any evidence to support climate change just points to a bigger "cover-up" and validates their beliefs. Almost always this is not an isolated belief…

Actually, those folks going around saying "we're all doomed, because climate change" are also suffering from a form of psychosis. More people should be recognizing this, too.
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