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False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

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Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#231

Post by dragonwriter »

bedhead wrote: post #125
jwally wrote: post #92

The U.S. would do itself a huge favour by allowing student debt to be bankruptable. College prices can rise infinitely because there is an unlimited supply of AAA+ debt to feed it. Drop that rating to reality and investors don't buy the debt, loans don't get originated, demand for college at $250k dries up.

Who is going to lend tens of thousands of dollars to an 18 year old with no income, no assets, and no credit?

> Who is going to lend tens of thousands of dollars to an 18 year old with no income, no assets, and no credit?

Since the elimination of the Federal Family Education Loan program in 2010, there has been only one legally-possible lender for Federally-guaranteed student loans.

And they aren't a for-profit corporation, or an entity that evidences much concern for babalncing spending and revenue.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#232

Post by dragonwriter »

RestlessMind wrote: post #227
Goronmon wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is going to lend tens of thousands of dollars to an 18 year old with no income, no assets, and no credit? So, just to be clear 18 year olds getting tens of thousands in dischargeable loans is ridiculous, but 18 year olds getting tens of thousands in non-dischargeable loans makes total sense? I mean, I understand why if you are a person making money off student loans, the latter is a great situation to have. But f…

> I mean, I understand why if you are a person making money off student loans, the latter is a great situation to have. But for anyone else, I'm not sure I agree that it's something we should fight for. But when a student needs a loan to pay for their education, the person lending money is more important than everyone else. If you are not going to incentivize lending money for college debt and instead going to add ri…

> But when a student needs a loan to pay for their education

When a student needs money to pay for their education, why are we extending loans rather than need-based grants?

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#233

Post by extra88 »

mrguyorama wrote: post #209
foldr wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is missing the point. There are plenty of flexible educational opportunities in the US too (e.g. community colleges). Both the UK and the US (and I say this as someone who's taught at universities in both countries) face the problem that the majority of people going to college now are going just because they need a degree to get a job, not because they have any interest in learning anything. Education is a publi…

Part time education in america is still expensive

Compared to what? Taking one three-credit course at Bunker Hill Community College is $558, taking four three-credit courses is $2,232 ($3,925 with health insurance) [0]. At City College of San Francisco (one I picked for to have a west coast option) is $138 for one typical course and $552 for four (that's just tuition but other fees are extremely low).

If you're taking courses at a private college part-time, sure their tuition is a lot higher; taking just one course like Fundamentals of Instructional Technology from RIT Online is $3,243 [2]. Four-year public universities will probably cost somewhere in-between but it varies a lot by state.

[0] https://www.bhcc.edu/tuition/tuitionfees-fall2018/ [1] http://www.ccsf.edu/en/student-services/admissions-and-regis... [2] http://www.rit.edu/ritonline/course/2181-1-HCIN-660-01

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#234

Post by nemothekid »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #223
ryandrake wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are only willing to pay X because X=Y+Z, where Y is what they can afford and Z is the max loan they can get. If they couldn’t get that loan Z, market forces would cause college costs to approach Y.

True, but then only rich parents would be able to send their kids to college, because they'd be able to win all the bidding wars.

There are only so many rich parents. Either (1) schools will close down, or (2) schools will lower prices. I'm willing to bet that the answer will be (2) for the vast majority of schools. Schools will not opt to stay open with 60k/yr tuitions and 0 undergrads.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#235

Post by sadamznintern »

projektir wrote: post #67
sadamznintern wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that college is a place to find yourself is mostly a statement of immense privilege. I grew up upper middle class (professional parents with masters) and I didn’t spend a moment in college finding myself, I spent most of it working or networking or sleeping. My folks paid for my CS degree from a state school, but even looking at the opportunity cost I’m not sure if anybody but the already wealthy or those at…

Something is wrong with your analysis. Lots of below upper middle class folks report "finding themselves" in college, and most people don't earn $180k out of college regardless. > I make less than most of my friends and they, by virtue of independent wealth or higher income or elite status, are significantly happier than me. I'm not really in the "money is irrelevant" bucket but this doesn't look like a monetary prob…

> Seems like you overtuned things and hit a lot of diminishing returns, where you worked hard but didn't see much for it, but now you assume people who work less hard have seen even less

I know for a fact people who have worked less hard have more...but again, mostly at better schools, or have wealthier backgrounds or are just plain luckier than me.

I guess the real problem is I'm still a failure no matter how much effort I put in.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#236

Post by nemothekid »

everdev wrote: post #200
nemothekid wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The supply/demand equation for college is broken precisely because student loans are can’t be discharged. Every student essentially has an infinitely deep pocket to borrow against so colleges continue to raise prices.

Sure, loans help increase prices just as with cars and housing. But the supply/demand equation is still the same. A high number of high school graduates want those few freshman seats at top colleges and are willing to pay X over the next 10-20 years to attend. College prices will rise until they hit that number. The structure of the loan (interest rate, terms, etc.) is factored into the value of X. The problem comes…

You can't compare student loans to car/housing loans. If I only make $50k/yr, there is no bank on the planet that will give me a loan for a $300k ferrari.

If I make a poor economic decisions, and choose to buy a ferrari, I'd also have to a find a bank willing to support my poor economic decisions. Naturally any bank will not take me seriously how much I plead with them on my ability to pay them back. That changes if I the bank is guaranteed by the government to get their money bank.

How much would a Toyota Corolla cost if the government was willing to fully back any car loan? Why wouldn't Toyota charge $500,000 for a Corolla if banks didn't care if their borrowers couldn't pay that amount back?

The short of it is people who would normally be completely priced out of a college education are now enabled by banks who give them fiscally irresponsible loans because they know the government is guaranteed to pay them back, whether or not the borrower can pay or not. If these loans didn't exist, there would be fewer people willing to pay $50k and schools would be forced to lower prices or go defunct.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#237

Post by AnimalMuppet »

dragonwriter wrote: post #226
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is credentials. If you have a college degree in X, you can prove it to me. If you lived at home and took pre-programmed online courses, I need a way of determining whether you actually know what those courses should have taught you. Of course, a college degree doesn't really tell me that, either. If you can solve this problem, you could make online education superior to college education (at least in term…

> The problem is credentials. If you have a college degree in X, you can prove it to me. If you lived at home and took pre-programmed online courses, I need a way of determining whether you actually know what those courses should have taught you. There is already an approach that addresses this: competency-based degree programs.

Are there competency-based degree programs that grant a degree that is generally recognized (by employers and/or grad schools)?

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#238

Post by dragonwriter »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #237
dragonwriter wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is credentials. If you have a college degree in X, you can prove it to me. If you lived at home and took pre-programmed online courses, I need a way of determining whether you actually know what those courses should have taught you. There is already an approach that addresses this: competency-based degree programs.

Are there competency-based degree programs that grant a degree that is generally recognized (by employers and/or grad schools)?

In that most employers (and grad schools) generally recognize degrees from accredited institutions, yes.

Obviously, there aren't any with the prestige of top traditional schools.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#239

Post by toomanybeersies »

sadamznintern wrote: post #235
projektir wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something is wrong with your analysis. Lots of below upper middle class folks report "finding themselves" in college, and most people don't earn $180k out of college regardless. > I make less than most of my friends and they, by virtue of independent wealth or higher income or elite status, are significantly happier than me. I'm not really in the "money is irrelevant" bucket but this doesn't look like a monetary prob…

> Seems like you overtuned things and hit a lot of diminishing returns, where you worked hard but didn't see much for it, but now you assume people who work less hard have seen even less I know for a fact people who have worked less hard have more...but again, mostly at better schools, or have wealthier backgrounds or are just plain luckier than me. I guess the real problem is I'm still a failure no matter how much e…

I don't want to sound like some bullshit life coach, but are you really a failure, or are you just measuring success wrong?

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#240

Post by toomanybeersies »

randomdata wrote: post #146
toomanybeersies wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Academically I knew what I wanted to do when I finished high school. I wanted to be a software engineer, and I became one. It sound super fucking corny, but when I left home at 18, I didn't really know who I was as a person. University really helped me find that. It's not just the independence, but the fact that at university you have a lot of free time, and you have a lot of opportunities to meet and interact with p…

> I'm actually proud of the fact that in my circle of friends, I don't know anyone who's a software engineer. Would you only know software engineers if you hadn't gone to university? I did not attend university and did not know another software engineer (outside of interacting with some online like on HN) until about 15 years into my career when a good friend started dating one. It does not really seem like the norm…

The fact that my friends aren't software engineers is a bit tangental to the fact that I went to university, as I moved country recently and had to build a new circle of friends.

But I do know people who's entire circle of friends is programmers and tech people. I guess if they're happy, then they're happy, but it's not for me. I enjoy my job, but there are other things I enjoy more.

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