The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.” • Hacker News Board

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#231

Post by metanoia » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 6:26 PM UTC

dm319 wrote: post #201

stcredzero wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you imagine Netflix or Amazon, Google or Facebook behaving this way? This is the difference between having a sense of civic duty and community vs. not. The customer/business relationship is a poor substitute for the real thing, even when they try to foster the trappings of false "community." there was a time when people considered the idea of an institution having a long and complete list of everything you've rea…

> having a sense of civic duty and community vs. not A sense of civic duty? These words sounds like they are from another period. I think this is low in the mindshare of the population of many western countries. As a society we're mostly concerned with personal progress, social influence and monetisation.

And this is the essential problem with society today - the lack of acknowledgement that there is such a thing as civic duty, or the greater good. It's all about personal advancement regardless of the externalized costs.

In the words of Toby Keith - It's all about me, it's all about I, it's all about #1...

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#232

Post by jrs95 » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 6:27 PM UTC

ironjunkie wrote: post #195

jrs95 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s sort of an assumption that the status quo is some how morally superior though. And you have to keep in mind that journalists are a part of that status quo. We have one group of elites and their spokespeople bitching about the newcomer. Personally I’d take the tech douche over the academic or the bureaucrat.

There is a lot of value in introducing new valid useful ideas. This is what Silicon Valley did 20 years ago. Now, the way a lot of people see it is as a set of elite smug overly-paid tech bros arrogantly trying to change every single unneeded part of life by "disrupting it". Which usually translates into yet another stupid useless app on your smartphone to order pizza.

You’re really throwing the baby out with the bath water here, though. And you have to focus on either straw men or specific anecdotes of “disruption” in order to paint this negative overall picture.

In the case of yet another app to order pizza...if nobody uses it or cares about it, then who gives a fuck?

“We should be hostile to people who are in the business of creating technology because they might make something nobody wants to buy” does not make sense.

Sure, maybe they’re smug and elitist idiots doing this stuff. But does it matter? And who is it that’s so interested in maligning tech as a whole? It’s their competitors in trying to accumulate wealth and power. Who, for what it’s worth, are even smugger and more elitist.

Overall, my opinion of this article is that it’s too narrowly focused and while it’s opinionated it’s also shallow. This is all typical of media now though. Ultimately this is part of a larger political context, and I think the underlying motivation for this articles and others like it is no different from Alexandra Pelosi’s “San Francisco 2.0”.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#233

Post by rayiner » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 6:27 PM UTC

The "libraries provide Internet access for poor people" argument is incredibly disingenuous. To use an example: My county spends about $22 million per year on its library system. There's about 500,000 people, about 5.9% of whom are under the poverty line. For what we spend on libraries, we could pay for a 4G smartphone and 4G LTE service to literally every single man, woman, and child under the poverty line. And we would have money left over to pay for targeted support services to teach people how to use them.

And unlike libraries, that would be a benefit almost everyone would actually use.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#234

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 6:28 PM UTC

ironjunkie wrote: post #50

I think there is a growing sentiment of disdain of Silicon Valley and tech in general. And I can see why, and it is getting more and more justified. As this article states, that arrogance to think that everything should/can be "disrupted". Usually the argument for disruption is always around another version of "making the world a better place", while it is very clear that the main motivation is to make a couple tech…

[deleted]

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#235

Post by jagipson » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 6:29 PM UTC

dm319 wrote: post #201

stcredzero wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you imagine Netflix or Amazon, Google or Facebook behaving this way? This is the difference between having a sense of civic duty and community vs. not. The customer/business relationship is a poor substitute for the real thing, even when they try to foster the trappings of false "community." there was a time when people considered the idea of an institution having a long and complete list of everything you've rea…

> having a sense of civic duty and community vs. not A sense of civic duty? These words sounds like they are from another period. I think this is low in the mindshare of the population of many western countries. As a society we're mostly concerned with personal progress, social influence and monetisation.

And this is why the West is in decline. Modern society is based on the specialization of its individuals to perform tasks more efficiently and that in doing so, society as a hole benefits from this.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#236

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 6:29 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#237

Post by zjaffee » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 6:30 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #79

BurningFrog wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me steelman that argument. Libraries were invented because information was only available on printed (or hand written) books, which were very expensive and scarce resources. Now information can be available almost literally for free and instantly, to anywhere. If the institutional inertia of libraries didn't exist today, would they really be invented as they are? https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man

We live in a fundamentally broken society today where rent-seekers want to break it further. No libraries would never be invented today. People like Carnegie who thrived in the industrial revolution recognized that and understood that education and social evolution was the path to prosperity and peace. When he studied recent history in his day, he probably pondered the decades of chaos and suffering kicked off by the…

I have to disagree that libraries wouldn't be invented today if they didn't already exist. Part of me feels that the trend of people moving back to the city is people seeking a greater desire to be a part of something greater than themselves and be able to participate in public life. It's more than simply an aversion to traffic.

Given that libraries are largely funded locally, should they not have existed, we would be seeking out the creation of more shared public spaces that don't require you to spend money to spend time there. These sorts of 3rd places are important, although I do agree that the modern plutocrat isn't the sort of person who is likely very safe when it comes to visiting these sorts of public spaces, and hence have an aversion to them.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#238

Post by Spooky23 » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 6:30 PM UTC

st1ck wrote: post #204

Spooky23 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We live in a fundamentally broken society today where rent-seekers want to break it further. No libraries would never be invented today. People like Carnegie who thrived in the industrial revolution recognized that and understood that education and social evolution was the path to prosperity and peace. When he studied recent history in his day, he probably pondered the decades of chaos and suffering kicked off by the…

> No libraries would never be invented today. Would you count Project Gutenberg, archive.org or SciHub? I'd also add Bittorrent and other p2p networks as media libraries. I bet there is plenty of lesser known archives like http://web.textfiles.com/

Why are you on HN? All of the information, all of the facts discussed here can be found places like Gutenberg, SciHub and archive.org.

But what you get on HN is curation, and a community of like minded people. The library is that in physical form, available to everyone.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#239

Post by pretendscholar » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

squozzer wrote: post #197

I will argue in favor of preserving "libraries" but let's first point out some flaws in author's reasoning. >But libraries are not just a place to find books — they’re one of the few places that provide a number of free services to the American public. Tax-payer funded != free. >Some two-thirds of our regular patrons fall into one of three categories: homeless, struggling with addiction, or recovering from addiction.…

>Tax-payer funded != free.

That is the most pedantic, useless point that makes no contribution to the conversation. No direct charge for each patron is the obvious way you are supposed to interpret free.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#240

Post by Spooky23 » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #214

Spooky23 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A: Libraries buy lots of books. Children's books would not exist with libraries. You'd probably find that without the library most of the deeper catalog for publishers would not be viable.

At risk of "+1, yes, this," I was naively but genuinely surprised at how valuable library sales can be to books when I was researching that a couple years ago. For indie/small press, even a few hundred extra copies sold could be a substantial revenue bump -- and only a small fraction of libraries in the country buying just one copy of a book could do it. (Also, I'm pretty sure publishers know this, and I don't think…

To pile on — think of the Amazon Kindle business model. You often pay more for instant gratification.

Even for popular books, it drives demand. You can wait 8 weeks to read the latest James Patterson, or buy it now. But would you buy the previous books in the series @ $20/ea?