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A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

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Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will it be a huge hurdle to write your own Siri actions that can control other apps on your phone and your smart devices with iOS 12? You can look on the Internet to see what people have been doing with the Workflow app (the app that Apple acquired and is integrating into iOS) without Apple’s hooks.

Well, you are speaking about an OS that isn’t publicly released. I’m speaking about programming capabilities of iPhone et al. as they are right now and have been in the last 10 years.

The OS may not be released, but the Workflow app - the basis of the automation that Apple acquired - has been out for years.

https://workflow.is/

https://www.lifewire.com/best-workflows-ios-app-4153797

The current integrations between third party apps are based on x-callback-url. Third party developers have been using it for at least 5 years.

http://x-callback-url.com/

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#232
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family got our first computer when I was about 8. I didn't learn to touch type till I was sixteen, but by then I had a really good sense of where all the the keys were. I distinctly remember hunting for letters. (but then again I remember not being able to spell basic words, so perhaps I'm the outlier).

I started touch typing at around 18, after just forcing myself as I knew it'd be beneficial in the long run. I could type around 60wpm using two fingers, I know where they keys are... Just not how to use every finger! Now I touch type 'properly' I can get close to 100wpm. My speed has kind of plateaued now though unfortunately.

Do you really find a benefit much past ~60wpm? Unless you're just transcribing, I would think compositional speed is the limiting factor.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#233
post #9

Do your children a favor and get them a "real" computer with keyboard and mouse, instead of a tablet. I've found it helps with several things. For one, I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Also, learning to use a keyboar…

> Compare for example searching for animal pictures using voice search versus going to the search engine, typing out the term, clicking on "images"... The first is much easier and teaches instant gratification, while the second teaches perseverance and comes with a greater sense of accomplishment.

I find this comparison hilarious. I've spent my early childhood without a computer, so if I wanted to see a picture of an animal I probably had to open a book and maybe even go to the library to get one. So I really doubt any of those methods u mention really teach anything.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#234
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Why do you think this is a bad think? This is how kids learn how the world works, by trying the same thing in different contexts, like how small children put everything in their mou…

My worry with toddlers and touch interfaces is precisely because at that age they should be exploring the world, touching, tasting, smelling, feeling... By exposing them to something that doesn't react to the laws of physics, I fear they get a wrong first impression of the world, that at an early age they are not able to distinguish the difference between a book and a representation of one. I'm not against tablets, j…

> By exposing them to something that doesn't react to the laws of physics, I fear they get a wrong first impression of the world

By this logic, "cartoon physics" are also a big no-no, because they teach kids that gravity only acts if you look down and notice that you have no support. Next thing you know you'll have kids running off ledges and expecting to float.

And I don't see how a mouse is more "physical" and "logical" than a touchscreen. On a touch screen, the pointer is right under your finger where you touch. The mouse is this strange thing which does action at a distance, through the intermediation of this "cursor" which has no correspondent in the physical world. Which is why I presume it's easy for a toddler to understand a touch-screen unlike a mouse which requires some pretty advanced hand-eye coordination and mental models.

> Nguyen, who is 10, said she has used one before - once - but the clunky desktop computer/monitor/keyboard/mouse setup was too much for her. "It was slow," she recalled, "and there were too many pieces."

> "Human hands and voice, if you use them in the digital world in the same way as the physical world, are incredibly expressive,"

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/th...

> Why the explosion now? For decades, attractive, interactive graphic interfaces have been available on home computers. But young children’s access to these was limited by both their cost [with the cost of hardware, software, and home internet contributing to the “digital divide” (Norris, 2001)] and by the fine motor skills and eye-hand coordination required to manipulate a keyboard and mouse. With the advent of touch screens on less expensive devices – smartphones and tablets – these financial and developmental barriers have been reduced: By their first birthdays, most children can become adept at touching, swiping and pinching on the screen. As a result, children’s access to touch screens has outpaced what we know about its effects – for better or worse – on early development.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.0107...

I'm not saying we should be giving tablets to toddlers. I don't know about that. But not doing this because of concerns about being able to distinguish between physical and virtual seems pure speculation at this moment, especially when we have as precedent fantastical stories that parents typically say to kids, which are also full of physics defying stories.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#235
I understand the issue described in the article, but I don't understand why people from this thread are so obfuscated about smartphones, teens not using physical keyboards or babies using smartphones better than they keep their own balance on 2 feet.

We were drawing with blood in caves, we were scratching stones with other stones, we were sculpting symbols on walls in Egypt, we started writing on papyrus, then paper, then started using typewriters, then physical keyboards and now virtual keyboards. Don't act like the generation that critiques the next generation because they see the world different.

Kids from today probably will be the ones communicating through brainwaves with the IoT or similar; a more efficient and higher throughput interface. Yes, it's important to learn how to use pencil and paper and how to type faster on a keyboard but move on.

I actually find it cumbersome to write on a keyboard on the phone, but also I feel that everything else is slow, interfaces are cumbersome, unintuitive and mostly just stupid.

If I search for a path on google maps, from point A to point B in a different country than I am now, and I forget to switch to car instead of public transport, then I don't get any result. And I am like how the fuck there is no path since there is an obvious big street over there, in the middle of the screen. Oh there is a small icon somewhere to switch the type of transport from public transport to car. What if they would check there are no results and suggest to change the transport type? Thanks for rounding the corners of the search bar, it makes a great difference.

Let me rant about search and reaching for an app on any OS. I have 120 apps on my iPhone 8, I use 5-6 everyday let's say. But once in a while I want to open an app that I don't know where it is because I don't use it often. I know how is called because is a well-known app and has the same name with their service or business or whole company. I use the search functionality on iOS, swipe down type 3 letters, wait, wait, fucking wait 2 seconds to get the results. It should be lightning fast, there are 120 strings to search through why the hell it takes so long. Oh, I typed last letter wrong, delete it, results are refreshing, write the correct one, wait again for results.

If I notice the lack of motion or changes then is too slow.

You will say that I can organize things in folders, after 3 months, oh is that app that connects to the camera in photos folder, utils, connectivity or "not often". Who cares? I know how the app is called, I can search for it, why is it slow?

Huge props for the fact that the text box gets focused when swiping down and I don't have to ("click?") touch on it to focus.

There are just 2 examples, but I use apps on my phone everyday, I search for public transport on my phone every weekend, multiple times a day. Why focus on making the 3 dots for settings as 3 dots instead of 3 lines from the burger icon? It's still unintuitive and the rest of the app is unintuitive. I could rant for weeks about other features or functionalities, on any platform you want.

God bless autocomplete!

Stop whining about small things, see the bigger context, meet people where they are going, understand their intentions, maker super usual tasks extremely easy and stop being stubborn. You will move on or other will move past you, sooner or later, worst case you will pass with your idea.

Context: I am working as a programmer full-time, participated for a long time in high school and university in algorithmic contests. I had multiple computers and used different OS-es. I am confortable with the CLI and I have a decent understanding how things work on the internet, what happens on multiple layers from when you type in your browser URL bar to when you see the website.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#236

It's worth bearing in mind that the source is Japanese. All input methods for the Japanese language are a compromise. Inputting kanji on a physical keyboard is nowhere near as fluid as inputting Latin characters - you're constantly toggling between inputting kana and selecting the kanji options presented by the IME. The prediction and correction technologies of smartphone keyboards are a very good match for kanji and…

As a Japanese native speaker who has to enter many Japanese texts on a daily basis both on a PC and on a smartphone, I feel obliged to point out that the quality of an IME (a piece of software providing possible kanji/alphabet sequences for a given phonetic relization), is far better on a PC (its built-in MS-IME, to be precise) than on a smartphone (iOS). I started looking for some example to show how bad iOS's IME i…

It would be interesting to compare the experience with a recent and updated Android phone, with the Google Keyboard. My bet is that Google's one is better at it, and improves rapidly.

(I don't speak Japanese, sadly)

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#237
I've met (teaching) too many teens that can't really use a computer. The procedural and hierarchical structure abstractions, even the desktop metaphor is lost on them. Idk if there's much of a future for widespread general purpose computing. The situation is understandable, as it's way more difficult to get the gist of how your system works nowadays than 20-30 years ago, and they're really using mobile paradigms that don't expect you to think about it, but I don't think it's a good prospect.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#238
post #9

Do your children a favor and get them a "real" computer with keyboard and mouse, instead of a tablet. I've found it helps with several things. For one, I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Also, learning to use a keyboar…

With A/R, it will get worse.

When I used to work with Motorola in the early-to-mid-90s (it was an actual company, you know), we had some HUD A/R things, and my kids (3 y.o.? 4 y.o?) got pretty accustomed to flicking at books and objects in real space.

Motorola tanked. Kids grew up. Learned how to type. Everything is fine. It was just a weird thing for my wife to try to process at the time.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#239
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often encounter people having issues double-clicking. Actually, a lot of people have trouble just single-clicking, so double-clicking is even more of a challenge. A lot of people just can't get the knack for clicking twice in quick succession. And the inconsistency between when they should single-click and when they should double-click causes a lot of confusion. I think it probably would make life easier to get rid…

The other week my Dutch language teacher (he's ~55) wrote an email "I would like to try Linux, can you please assist?" after learning about what is open source and libre software. I was pleasantly surprised to receive his email. So last week I went to install Fedora 28 on his new laptop. It all went smoothly. No, that's a lie; I had to do a little scary command-line surgery while he watched me do it (and heard me ass…

I changed to single-click (and select-on-hover) a few months after moving to Linux, and won't come back, maybe your prof would like it too?

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#240
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My worry with toddlers and touch interfaces is precisely because at that age they should be exploring the world, touching, tasting, smelling, feeling... By exposing them to something that doesn't react to the laws of physics, I fear they get a wrong first impression of the world, that at an early age they are not able to distinguish the difference between a book and a representation of one. I'm not against tablets, j…

> By exposing them to something that doesn't react to the laws of physics, I fear they get a wrong first impression of the world, that at an early age they are not able to distinguish the difference between a book and a representation of one. I'm not friends with how you casually throw the word "wrong" in there, as if it was an unquestionable universal agreement. Transport yourself (by vessel of imagination) to a fut…

I work with a designer that has something like 20+ years of print experience. We make web sites. It's true that some habits are hard to break, like wanting pixel perfect shapes and alignments, which of course doesn't work too well with today's needs of responsive design, or mobile first interfaces.

But, after a basic introduction to the fundamentals of modern web design, the guy has come up with some great ideas, elegant and easy to navigate... And can still do posters flyers etc.

He is now even getting into 3d stuff for animations.

Point is, learning is incremental, and it's always possible to extend what one knows in new directions, if one is of curious mind and willing to change.

Now, concerning toddlers and tablets... the thing is, we are governed by the physical world in which we live. It's very important on a mental but also motor level to have a good understanding of that. I mean things that adults take for granted like balance, dexterity, hand eye coordination, a subconscious understanding of gravity, etc.

These are actually learned by trial and error, if you've ever seen a toddler stack blocks or learn to throw you'll have seen this in action.

During this period of learning about the world, having regular interactions with objects that do not follow the same rules is confusing to very young children. This is not just my opinion but something which many child psychologists agree on.

Again I'm not against tablets, but better not to introduce them earlier than 3 or 4 years old at the earliest.

I think that still gives them plenty of time to assimilate 21st century technology and think of the next big thing in 20 years. Which I probably won't understand ;-)

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