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How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

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Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#231

Post by brownbat »

toasterlovin wrote: post #224
brownbat wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Double blind is not quite the only way to acquire knowledge. Even Karl Popper believed in astronomy.

I'm been chewing over your comment since last night, so thanks! These are just some thoughts, which I don't have a high degree of confidence in, but here goes anyway: I guess the difference between astronomy and diet is that, in my conception, at least, the systems studied in astronomy tend to be less complex than the human body and, therefore, they can be modeled relatively easily. My hunch is that this has somethin…

I think that's an interesting approach. For the record, I absolutely share your healthy suspicion that health sciences need a bit (much) more hand holding than some (most) other disciplines.

To needle you slightly further, though, I'd recommend you consider John Snow's investigation into cholera clusters near certain water sources in London: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outb...

What should we make of that?

Ok, more generally...

I'm glad you're giving this some thought, because this line of inquiry (or something like it) really affected the way I think about science and knowledge. It's an incredibly rewarding line to go down, though not entirely free of frustrating dead ends.

If you find this stuff interesting, you might want to poke around a bit in 20th century philosophy. There are some (needlessly lengthy) summaries at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, esp. under "Logical Empiricism." I hesitate to recommend that, though, it's long on history and short on significant arguments and though-provoking examples.

"Two Dogmas of Empiricism" by Quine profoundly affected the way I think about all of this. It's not an easy piece, I had to read it a few times and kept turning it over in my head for months. At first I thought it was nonsense. Then I thought it was just wrong. Then it sort of wormed its way into my head and changed a few core things I believed about knowledge. Or reorganized them. Karl Popper, Rudolf Carnap, and Wittgenstein all had profound contributions here too.

At the end of Quine's paper he says that White basically said everything important on this already in "The Analytic and the Synthetic: An Untenable Dualism." I haven't read that, but maybe it's the accessible version. One could hope.

http://www.thatmarcusfamily.org/philosophy/Course_Websites/R...

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#232

Post by [deleted] »

op00to wrote: post #80
tzakrajs wrote: post #77

The reason vegetables are poisonous is because of the animal waste that is being used to grow plants. If there wasn't such a huge livestock industry, people wouldn't be using their excrement for fertilizer and our plants would be safer.

It’s not animal waste. It’s human waste.

[deleted]

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#233

Post by balls187 »

betterbeehome wrote: post #230
betterbeehome wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I was thinking. Talk about taking away any benefits of eating salad... more bleach please?

Downvoting me for this was stupid. You know know enough about food if you think bleaching is healthy. Apart of what makes salad healthy is the bacterial culture that's naturally on it. Think probiotics that are essential to maintaining proper digestion of the food you're eating. Seriously, get downvoted for anything.

I didn't downvote you, but if you think the only thing that makes salad healthy are it's probiotics then you also don't know enough about food.

Any cooking method that would kill ecoli will also destroy those helpful bacteria.

Factory farms in the US wash their vegetables with chlorinated water.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#234

Post by logfromblammo »

balls187 wrote: post #228
logfromblammo wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems an impractical suggestion, at best. To spend $450 and fly 2000 miles, to then spend $21 on a lunch-menu salad. Made with iceberg lettuce. Instead of any of the fresh oysters on that menu that I cannot get at home. That recipe seems to be for disappointment. If the only way to redeem an otherwise boring and useless chunk of iceberg lettuce is to put better foods on top of it, like steak, why not just throw…

What use do you have for romaine, bibb, or leaf lettuce that doesn't involve putting better foods on top of it?

Now that you mention it, none. They're all just better than iceberg.

Green cabbage is the lowest vegetable on the hierarchy that I'll actually eat by itself. Though even with that, I sometimes put a red cabbage leaf on top of it.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#235

Post by betterbeehome »

balls187 wrote: post #233
betterbeehome wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvoting me for this was stupid. You know know enough about food if you think bleaching is healthy. Apart of what makes salad healthy is the bacterial culture that's naturally on it. Think probiotics that are essential to maintaining proper digestion of the food you're eating. Seriously, get downvoted for anything.

I didn't downvote you, but if you think the only thing that makes salad healthy are it's probiotics then you also don't know enough about food. Any cooking method that would kill ecoli will also destroy those helpful bacteria. Factory farms in the US wash their vegetables with chlorinated water.

"if you think the only thing that makes salad healthy are it's probiotics then you also don't know enough about food."

Learn about the gut micro-biome. The main reason salad is good for you it's effect on gut.

We eat to feed the gut, not ourselves. To imply that prebiotics/probiotics aren't the main reason vegetables have a positive health effect on us is beyond ignorant. That's the reason why diabetes, cancer and heart disease is now worse than all the wars of history combined.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#236

Post by balls187 »

betterbeehome wrote: post #235
balls187 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote you, but if you think the only thing that makes salad healthy are it's probiotics then you also don't know enough about food. Any cooking method that would kill ecoli will also destroy those helpful bacteria. Factory farms in the US wash their vegetables with chlorinated water.

"if you think the only thing that makes salad healthy are it's probiotics then you also don't know enough about food." Learn about the gut micro-biome. The main reason salad is good for you it's effect on gut. We eat to feed the gut, not ourselves. To imply that prebiotics/probiotics aren't the main reason vegetables have a positive health effect on us is beyond ignorant. That's the reason why diabetes, cancer and he…

> That's the reason why diabetes, cancer and heart disease is now worse than all the wars of history combined.

So just take a bunch of probiotics with your steak n shake, and call it good?

And, you meant to say salad that hasn't ever been washed in chlorinated water is good for you.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#237

Post by betterbeehome »

balls187 wrote: post #236
betterbeehome wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if you think the only thing that makes salad healthy are it's probiotics then you also don't know enough about food." Learn about the gut micro-biome. The main reason salad is good for you it's effect on gut. We eat to feed the gut, not ourselves. To imply that prebiotics/probiotics aren't the main reason vegetables have a positive health effect on us is beyond ignorant. That's the reason why diabetes, cancer and he…

> That's the reason why diabetes, cancer and heart disease is now worse than all the wars of history combined. So just take a bunch of probiotics with your steak n shake, and call it good? And, you meant to say salad that hasn't ever been washed in chlorinated water is good for you.

"So just take a bunch of probiotics with your steak n shake, and call it good?"

Are you taking the piss?

"And, you meant to say salad that hasn't ever been washed in chlorinated water is good for you."

You're the one putting words into my mouth. I never said that because I don't believe that. Salad that's fresh from a traditional farm using healthy soil, practices and cultivar is good for you.

If you're satisfied with nutritionally bankrupt, sterile food, fine. Good for you.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#238

Post by balls187 »

betterbeehome wrote: post #237
balls187 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's the reason why diabetes, cancer and heart disease is now worse than all the wars of history combined. So just take a bunch of probiotics with your steak n shake, and call it good? And, you meant to say salad that hasn't ever been washed in chlorinated water is good for you.

"So just take a bunch of probiotics with your steak n shake, and call it good?" Are you taking the piss? "And, you meant to say salad that hasn't ever been washed in chlorinated water is good for you." You're the one putting words into my mouth. I never said that because I don't believe that. Salad that's fresh from a traditional farm using healthy soil, practices and cultivar is good for you. If you're satisfied wit…

So you go visit the farms and check to make sure the soil is healthy?

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#239

Post by Cthulhu_ »

fma wrote: post #168
dlwdlw wrote: post #104

One interesting thing ive noticed about chinese culture are the heuristics around cleanliness. Vegetables are always washed vigorously and cooked. Salads and sandwiches and other raw-like things are rather disliked. Hands are washed after petting dogs/cats. Slippers always worn around the house. Dislike of carpets. Windows opened every morning for fresh air. Other random stuff. The safety heuristics cant be delegated…

I remember watching TV growing up... Full house or whatever family sitcom. The kids laid the bed with their shoes on, school clothes. My mom comments on how dirty that is. Additionaly it seems like only textbook are Americans using paper towels to open bathroom doors after washing their hands. My mom instilled that at a young age (I'm 36 now). Now it irritates me to see a Dyson hand dryer, and have to open the bathro…

I've only taken to using paper towels to open doors, after realizing how everyone touches that thing after using the bathroom. Why do bathroom doors open to the inside?

It's even worse in the cinema, where there's a lot more people using it and only those dyson things. Plus not everyone washes their hands. Some only sorta wave their thumb and index finger under a bit of water.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#240

Post by Cthulhu_ »

blattimwind wrote: post #201
windexh8er wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is most certainly untrue. All you have to do is consider the fact that all uncooked meats come with a warning. This is because it is well known, and admitted by the meat and egg industries, that raw and undercooked meats and eggs are unsafe for consumption. This is because of the environments they come out of. Greens on the other hand are not fertilized with manure or subject to E.Coli laden environments during…

"all uncooked meats come with a warning" ... like... literally? There is a warning printed on all raw meat packaging in the US?

Given it's the US, I wouldn't be surprised - if the warning's not on there, people could (and probably have) sued when contracting food poisoning.
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