An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal. • Hacker News Board

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#231

Post by crdoconnor » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #206

bitL wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the large ones (Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, etc.) give coding puzzles as part of their interview process. They are considered the best and give above average compensation. Is your company considered the best, properly paying top talent, to employ the same schema? Those tests were done to distill the top end performers with the accepted risk of huge number of false negatives. Now every mom-and-dad shop is…

> Is your company considered the best, properly paying top talent, to employ the same schema? Yes, this was true of every job I've ever had. Maybe I've been lucky. I don't really understand why asking someone to do a small amount of programming for a programming job interview, when they claim to be an experienced programmer, is any sort of "extreme" practice. You've expressed a lot of complaints about coding quizzes,…

>I don't really understand why asking someone to do a small amount of programming for a programming job interview, when they claim to be an experienced programmer, is any sort of "extreme" practice.

It isn't and that's exactly what you should expect.

Nonetheless it shouldn't be too much to ask that the test and interview ask relevant questions and that the company puts skin in the game that is commensurate with the sacrifice being asked of the candidate.

In other words, 5 minute screener tests are cool but if you make me do a weekend project you put me up in a 5 star hotel.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#232

Post by chadash » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:51 PM UTC

bushin wrote: post #229

chadash wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course the question is biased against certain programming languages. For example, in python: def reverse_str(x): return x[::-1] works. If you remember this notation, then you'll have this problem done in 30 seconds or less. But even if you don't remember this notation, I expect a candidate to figure out some way to reverse a string within 5 minutes in some language. I can think of engineering roles that rarely wor…

> strings are simply arrays of chars or code units/code points/grapheme clusters/emojis. Thanks to hard work of many developers string handling becomes easier over time, but I don't think it's trivial if you don't exactly specify what you mean by "string" and "character".

I think you and I are arguing semantics then. The very question "what do you mean by a string?" already indicates that you might be familiar with some of the differences between unicode and ascii, for example. In that case, I'll clarify what I mean depending on the language the candidate is most comfortable with. For example, if they plan to use C++, I might clarify that they can assume that the string is an array of chars containing letters a-z. I really just intend it as a filtering question, but someone can definitely get bonus points if they ask intelligent questions to clarify the problem.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#233

Post by acdha » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #228

nilkn wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My fear would be that you wouldn't have a rigorous, well-tuned process for those folks, so there could be a lot of noise or randomness in their evaluations. And it could be very hard for you to compare them with the folks with extensive GitHub portfolios and resumes.

Perhaps, but what's the alternative? Don't look at anyone's OSS projects (and lose a LOT of valuable information) because it would put the people who don't have any at a disadvantage?

I think the main thing would be consciously correcting for that: the real value is asking about design decisions — it's my favorite technique — and just making sure that it's fully normalized that not everyone has those out in the open.

It's still easy to spot the liars — e.g. I've interviewed people who worked at the NSA and even they could talk about the skills they used, just not which projects or data — and the process of deciding which things to talk about is a pretty good way to explore their communications style, too.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#234

Post by bitL » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:53 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #225

bitL wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you have in your CV verifiable statements that you worked on some super tough engineering challenges, including advanced snippets of code/projects on GitHub demonstrating your dominance in that area, doing silly low-end coding quizzes seems like a total waste of time. Can't you really see that? It's literally like if I asked you if you ever ran a company and if you could handle preparing a budget, despite…

> Because if you have in your CV verifiable statements that you worked on some super tough engineering challenges If it takes longer to verify than it does to test your coding ability directly, why shouldn't I just ask you to do some coding? The challenges you took might be less impressive or well known than you think. The challenges you took might not say much about you if they were team challenges. > including adva…

I think you are completely missing the point I am trying to make.

Imagine you have strong interest from Google, FB, Uber, Amazon etc. Google wants to waive their interview process as you are an open source contributor (they actually read your CV and clicked on the links). FB wants you to lead some ML team they have doing cool things etc. Other companies beg you to work for them even if you don't consider them interesting, willing to overpay you and pamper you.

Now comes your unknown company/startup. In order to even talk, you require passing some HackerRank coding test. I look at your Glassdoor reviews, you either have none, or few, or your compensation seems to be low etc. You might be working in interesting area, maybe I should give you a shot? Or I just want to see what current crop of interviews in your industry looks like, maybe I agree on going through the process? Maybe I even visit some interesting city you are located in and scratch it off my bucket list?

In the end I won't work for you. I won't consider anything you offer. I've gotten from you what I wanted - glimpse of the area you are working on for more ideas, keeping my brain up to date to interview requirements, visiting city I've never been before. You wasted time and money on me. You didn't get anything. I puzzled your head because you thought you'd have a shot at getting me. And that is the best outcome you'd get from this; most likely I wouldn't even talk to you after your initial requirements and go with other choices available to me.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#235

Post by StavrosK » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:57 PM UTC

acdha wrote: post #233

StavrosK wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but what's the alternative? Don't look at anyone's OSS projects (and lose a LOT of valuable information) because it would put the people who don't have any at a disadvantage?

I think the main thing would be consciously correcting for that: the real value is asking about design decisions — it's my favorite technique — and just making sure that it's fully normalized that not everyone has those out in the open. It's still easy to spot the liars — e.g. I've interviewed people who worked at the NSA and even they could talk about the skills they used, just not which projects or data — and the p…

Yes, that's what I generally tend to do. I present them with a scenario or a problem and have them walk me through how they'd solve it and what their tradeoffs would be.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#236

Post by dahart » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #226

dahart wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to hear examples of how to do it right, without taking all my time. I'm genuinely interested in how to hire people without wasting their time or mine. I'd love to screen people with a day of pair programming or a 2 week paid internship, or whatever other good ideas are floating around. I can't. You have just dismissed most tech companies. All the large ones (Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, etc.) give codin…

In the past I've given programming tasks that mimic real life work as closely as possible and fit them into a reasonable time frame - for example, 1 hour of pairing/programming during an arranged face to face interview. If the test is well designed, touches on a number of areas and self contained, I think this was sufficient for me to assess their skills. "Mimic real life" means no puzzles (unless I've literally expe…

> 1 hour of pairing/programming during an arranged face to face interview. If the test is well designed, touches on a number of areas and self contained, I think this was sufficient for me to assess their skills.

Sounds great. I've done this too, but I've never done it before screening candidates. I don't have enough time to screen candidates by programming with them.

> "Mimic real life" means no puzzles (unless I've literally experienced them in real life), no binary tree reversals and no big O notation questions.

Understood. My goal with my coding quizzes and knowledge questions is not to mimic real life. It's to asses the boundaries of the candidate's education and experience, without regard to skill.

> I think that type of thinking leads to embarrassments like this

There always have been and always will be false negatives, even with lengthy face-to-face interviews, even with pair programming, and even with paid internships.

One high profile false negative anecdote, while unfortunate, doesn't imply there's a widespread or unexpected problem. Applying for jobs always comes with a risk of not getting the job for a wide variety of factors that are outside the candidate's control. If it's a job you really want, all you can do is try hard.

I love homebrew, and I'm sure @mxcl is a fabulous coder, but the tweet you shared does make it sound like he expected to get the job without an interview, and might have come across that way, or might have not prepared at all.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#237

Post by hysan » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #200

zaphar wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Letting the applicant dictate the terms of the evaluation That sounds vaguely biased toward the employer. An interview is a a two way process. The candidate in this case will likely have no problem finding a job. In a way, it sounds like he's doing his own pre-screening and the hacker rank request is a non-positive signal for him. Our profession is somewhat bifurcated. There are the developers who only ever do glue c…

How can I, as an employer, provide a fair interview process if every interviewee gets to pick terms? A uniform process isn't because we think it is the optimal process, but because it is the best process that ensures fairness.

Here's the thing. Not every interviewee is going to care. You do it on a case-by-case basis where you weigh the importance of the position you're trying to fill with your time. Looking for a productive, average developer? Then say no to their terms. Looking for the best of the best? Then you may want to spend that extra 5 minutes looking over their CV and consider if they might be worth your time.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#238

Post by dahart » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

bitL wrote: post #234

dahart wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because if you have in your CV verifiable statements that you worked on some super tough engineering challenges If it takes longer to verify than it does to test your coding ability directly, why shouldn't I just ask you to do some coding? The challenges you took might be less impressive or well known than you think. The challenges you took might not say much about you if they were team challenges. > including adva…

I think you are completely missing the point I am trying to make. Imagine you have strong interest from Google, FB, Uber, Amazon etc. Google wants to waive their interview process as you are an open source contributor (they actually read your CV and clicked on the links). FB wants you to lead some ML team they have doing cool things etc. Other companies beg you to work for them even if you don't consider them interes…

Please propose a better process!

> Google wants to waive their interview process as you are an open source contributor. Other companies beg you to work for them even if you don't consider them interesting, willing to overpay you and pamper you.

That's not a realistic scenario, your point seems contrived. Google doesn't waive their interview process, as the @mxcl example demonstrates. Companies only beg to throw money at you and overpay you if you're famous or have a niche skill. If that's true for you, this conversation is irrelevant to you.

> Now comes your unknown company/startup. In order to even talk, you require passing some HackerRank coding test.

As I said above, I'm assuming this process only starts when you express interest in the company. If you're complaining about having to respond to recruiter spam, I can't help you. Nobody is forcing you to take any tests. You should only do it when it's for a job you want.

> In the end I won't work for you. I won't consider anything you offer.

What you're doing is avoiding false positives by screening for something you care about. The same thing Google does. Except Google has statistics on how well their screens work.

> You wasted time and money on me.

Or, more accurately, they saved time and money by not doing lengthy and involved interviews or researching you heavily before discovering it's not a good fit.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#239

Post by Caveman_Coder » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 6:24 PM UTC

bitL wrote: post #223

Caveman_Coder wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely it is watching Netflix and reading HN...let's not pretend we're all out there saving the world and volunteering our free time for selfless causes...

It's just an example of course. But even downtime from work is massively important for your mental health, why it should be interrupted by a constant treadmill on recruiter's rat race?

> "why it should be interrupted by a constant treadmill on recruiter's rat race?"

Isn't this self imposed if you are the one applying for the job??? I don't get it, if some rando recruiter emails me a Hacker Rank test, I delete the email if I'm not interested...pretty simple. If I am interested, then I apply and that is no longer an "interruption"...or at least it is self imposed so there is no real reason to complain.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#240

Post by WDCDev » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 6:50 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #220

bitL wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the large ones (Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, etc.) give coding puzzles as part of their interview process. They are considered the best and give above average compensation. Is your company considered the best, properly paying top talent, to employ the same schema? Those tests were done to distill the top end performers with the accepted risk of huge number of false negatives. Now every mom-and-dad shop is…

Those "mom-and-dad shops" are the ones who have the most to lose by hiring the wrong person. A sufficiently poor performing person could cripple them.

They also have a lot to lose by leaving the position unfilled for months on end. If you aren't Googlefaceapplezon, then false negatives could be as costly as false positives given time is money.