Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave • Hacker News Board

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#231

Post by linkregister » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 7:26 AM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #93

ryandrake wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations if you honestly can "quit and get a new job in a week". This is not true for the vast majority of tech professionals. Even if it were currently true in general, it will not be true during the next inevitable tech downturn (I've survived two of them in 20 years so far, knock on wood). Also, organizing is not just about protecting one's job. It's about collectively negotiating for stuff like pay, benefi…

Indeed, and interviews are now a circus of multi-hour sudden death trivia sessions. I honestly don’t know how folks get hired quickly these days unless they have a big network that will let them bypass the bullshit.

Maybe I have such a niche skillset, but the last few offers I've received (and turned down) were straight from inbound LinkedIn messages. It appears that times are changing.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#232

Post by knieveltech » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 7:37 AM UTC

jpollock wrote: post #223

losteverything wrote: post #136

Imo union-ism is an attitide and coupled with experience is effective. Just because you are salaried and "professional" does not mean you collectively do not have extreme clout. Whatever the hot issues are - say hours worked in a 7 day period - and the desire is to place limits (say 4 twelve hour days amd 1 eight hour day) having a union attitude means your bargained (agreed upon) rules are enforceable. And you carry…

Unions are a negative word because they (in my experience) provide negative experiences. My personal experiences: 1) When a co-op student, a female friend (also a co-op student) was assaulted (punched in the face) when she crossed a picket line to go to work - she wasn't in a union job so she _had_ to go to work. 2) At my first job, another friend related an experience where they beat their daily quota by 3-4x. They…

None of these anecdotes are union-specific. People are assholes and behave poorly at work in every industry regardless of how the labor force is organized.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#233

Post by hux_ » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 7:42 AM UTC

losteverything wrote: post #225

saas_co_de wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Teamster and I have worked in union labor jobs, non union labor jobs, and professional jobs. One of the big misconceptions is that unions are just for workers. In my experience unions benefit the employers just as much as the workers by providing a formal process for raising and resolving grievances. This helps corporations by keeping things smooth and puts a check on low level management that benefits the org…

This is a great comment. Your point "dont really think that software engineers could benefit much from unionization" I disagree in one respect: hours and time of day worked. If rules exist that mean you dont work weekends or holidays or more than 50 hours in a week you as an engineer could simply cite rules amd say no. Rules could exist for who has to work those times...

Software engineers haven't evolved enough to realize developers and engineering managers both are highly replacaleable cogs in a software factory. Until influential teams (Devs+Mgrs) that work well together learn the value of sticking together, software unions won't take off.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#234

Post by pasquinelli » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 7:45 AM UTC

ng12 wrote: post #5

chollida1 wrote: post #2

I thought this was interesting because if knowledge workers like journalists can do so, why not programmers, or what ever term you'd prefer to be called?

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

"Why do we need a union in a seller's market?"

that's a silly question, isn't it? "for when it becomes a buyer's market", seems like an obvious answer. and when that happens, it'll probably be harder to unionize.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#235

Post by pasquinelli » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 7:58 AM UTC

ng12 wrote: post #172

booleandilemma wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? I think this is going to change soon (~10 years). I have seen people with computer science masters degrees working in support positions. I’m not talking about maintenance development, I’m talking about tech support. When I graduated there were maybe 5 people in my class, but now the market is starting to get flooded with CS people. Everyone is hopping on the CS train like…

As somebody who does a lot of interviews: I don't care about a master's degree. Anectodally it has a very low correlation with programming ability. The market being flooded with CS degrees doesn't scare me, I'll start getting scared when it takes less than 6 months to hire for an entry-level role.

the pickiness of employers isn't itself a sign you should start getting scared?

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#236

Post by pasquinelli » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 8:00 AM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #80

ng12 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

I think especially in a seller's market a union would have a strong negotiation position to raise salaries and improve conditions. I don't think a union can help much in a declining industry.

a buyer's market for labor doesn't mean a declining industry, just that strong demand had made an excess supply, as happens from time to time.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#237

Post by jlardinois » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 9:31 AM UTC

losteverything wrote: post #225

saas_co_de wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Teamster and I have worked in union labor jobs, non union labor jobs, and professional jobs. One of the big misconceptions is that unions are just for workers. In my experience unions benefit the employers just as much as the workers by providing a formal process for raising and resolving grievances. This helps corporations by keeping things smooth and puts a check on low level management that benefits the org…

This is a great comment. Your point "dont really think that software engineers could benefit much from unionization" I disagree in one respect: hours and time of day worked. If rules exist that mean you dont work weekends or holidays or more than 50 hours in a week you as an engineer could simply cite rules amd say no. Rules could exist for who has to work those times...

I know "if you don't like your job, find a new one!" is a tired cliche that often gets thrown at people complaining about legitimate grievances, but software engineering is one of the few fields where a good employee can fairly easily leave for greener pastures whenever they want, at least in the US.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#238

Post by jopsen » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 10:16 AM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #229

skrebbel wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only know American unions from stories (such as the ones in this thread, or the one where a Hollywood director got in trouble for using a towel to wipe some sweat off the face of an actor - that was someone else's job), but wow. Both American political parties are (from a socio-economic perspective) more right-wing than all mainstream parties in my country. Even the most right-wing party we have is pro (partly) sub…

I think that you're not well-informed about the character of U.S. unions. Most are in the trades and manufacturing sectors. Members of those unions are typically right-wing and would be appalled at your characterization. The largest U.S. union, AFL/CIO is hardly leftist. It's interesting that you mention Communism. Historically, U.S. unions have been vehemently anti-communist after widespread suspicion of the U.S. Co…

if unions aren't leftist then maybe that's why they are broken.. Being more socialist isn't about inefficiency, but about solidarity.

If your union isn't a bit socialist, won't it easily end up becoming a protectionist nightmare?

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#239

Post by skrebbel » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 1:11 PM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #229

skrebbel wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only know American unions from stories (such as the ones in this thread, or the one where a Hollywood director got in trouble for using a towel to wipe some sweat off the face of an actor - that was someone else's job), but wow. Both American political parties are (from a socio-economic perspective) more right-wing than all mainstream parties in my country. Even the most right-wing party we have is pro (partly) sub…

I think that you're not well-informed about the character of U.S. unions. Most are in the trades and manufacturing sectors. Members of those unions are typically right-wing and would be appalled at your characterization. The largest U.S. union, AFL/CIO is hardly leftist. It's interesting that you mention Communism. Historically, U.S. unions have been vehemently anti-communist after widespread suspicion of the U.S. Co…

Thanks, I appreciate your elaboration.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#240

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 1:17 PM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #77

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except collective bargaining won't exist without that law. The free rider problem will destroy any possibility of collective bargaining. That's why I think it's disingenuous to say: If a group of people wish to collectively bargain with their employer, that's wonderful. But, they can leave me out of it, and I can do without whatever pay schedule and benefits they manage to extract from the employer. Well you can't re…

Not necessarily true. If enough people find the union valuable, believe in its aims, and want to participate in it, then the employer can't afford to lose or alienate the union employees, so the union has negotiating power (proportional to the employees that participate). If enough people don't find the union valuable, don't believe in its aims, and don't want to participate in it, then the union will correctly have…

Any corporation can break any union simply by refusing to negotiate only for union members. So say the union is fighting for a $1 raise and more pto. The corporation just says "okay, everyone, including non union members, gets a $1 raise and more pto." At that point why would you pay union dues? You can just freeride. To think that corporations won't behave this way is naive, they want to maximize free-riding benefit so that the union crumbles.