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James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

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Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#231

Post by mightykan »

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

“... a stupid political game he didn’t even realize he was playing.”

Bullshit! He’s smart enough to work at Google but didn’t realize he was playing a stupid game? I am glad that his life is ruined and that he is toxic and non-hirable. I hope this lawsuit doesn’t go anywhere (very likely since Google has all the money, resources and motivation to crush it).

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#232

Post by microcolonel »

thenayr wrote: post #214
microcolonel wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The dude literally let himself be paraded around by the alt-right and neo-nazi groups as a hero. Explain how this is James' fault. > When alt-right Twitter agrees with your world-views, you're doing something WRONG. Alt-right Twitter agrees that murder is wrong, the national debt is concerning, and that sexual assault is supremely immoral. What does that make you, if you define yourself by disagreement with them? I…

You're joking, right? These guys elected the sexual-assaulter-in-chief. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=H2J5E8sSdsI

> You're joking, right?

No, I'm dead serious, the alt right is not literally reptilians, they hold the vast majority of common moral opinions. The body of things that you and they could agree on is enormous, you can't dismiss somebody simply because the alt-right doesn't disagree with them.

> These guys elected the sexual-assaulter-in-chief.

So did I, and millions of others. The alt-right is a supreme minority in the United States, they do not have the numbers to elect the President, this is hysterical.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#233

Post by MollyR »

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a fast 7 figure settlement. Conservatives/Populists groups are literally salivating for discovery to nail google on other things.

EDIT: Also reminder some googlers kept politically motivated blacklists, if those blacklists were on company computers, Google will be hammered for it. Discovery could go wrong for Google in a million ways.

https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/google-manifesto-blacklists.h...

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#235

Post by Alex3917 »

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #215
Alex3917 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the consensus is that biological sex differences are not that big of an effect, certainly not enough to explain the gender disparity in tech. Whether sex differences explain the gender disparity in tech isn't even the kind of question that cog dev folks ask.

> You're making stuff up. Hey, let's keep things civil. Please consider Hanlon's Razor in this case. How about something like, "I don't think you're correct about the consensus. Citations please?"

Fair, edited my comment.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#236

Post by gnicholas »

AFNobody wrote: post #26
hsod wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it libelous to interpret someones words in a way they don't like?

> I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Not if it is anything resembling a reasonable interpretation of the tex…

I was curious about this statement also, because he doesn't present any evidence of different abilites in the memo. On a reddit AMA, he explained that he had actually removed the ability-related evidence, which isn't what you'd expect: instead of showing that women have less of an ability to code, the evidence suggests that women who have high math ability are more likely to have high verbal ability also, vis a vis men with high math ability. So women with high math ability have more options than men, on average, because they're likely to have more verbal ability as well. These women can then pursue jobs in other areas, whereas the men with high math ability don't have those options and therefore pursue things like coding.

I'm not weighing in on whether this evidence (which was based on SAT, IIRC) is correct or has been interpreted validly. I'm just pointing out that this was what Damore claimed (after the snafu arose—so take with at least a grain of salt) this statement was in reference to. I'd love to know if others have different information, especially if it was in earlier drafts of the doc.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#237

Post by tboyd47 »

DanAndersen wrote: post #226
tboyd47 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it and it made me pretty annoyed, not so much for what he said, but how he chose to go about saying it. He says he is only trying to start a conversation or discussion, but circulating a secret memo around your company and then going on a self-promotional media crusade really is not a great way to do that. It looks more like a political stunt, which is pretty much the opposite of a conversation.

>circulating a secret memo around your company >then going on a self-promotional media crusade If internally sharing a document within a company is bad, and externally talking about it once it was made public by another party who got you fired is also bad, what is in your opinion the acceptable and appropriate method to have this conversation?

Going privately to people who disagree with you and talking to them respectfully about the issue you disagree on is a start.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#238

Post by Pyxl101 »

threeseed wrote: post #199
viridian wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I largely agreed with the memo. I have coworkers and friends who fell on either side of the camp, but more in the agree camp than disagree. Should we just purge half the developers in Columbus for Silicon Valley wrongthink? edit: looks like thenayr updated his post a couple of times since my reply. When written only the first two lines were present.

(1) Your anecdotal evidence is literally worthless. You need to provide some statistics that 50% of developers support him. I can easily self select 100% of developers who disagree with Damore. (2) If you agree/disagree with Damore that's great. It's your right as a person to have opinions and no company can criticise you for that. What you can't do however is publicise these issues on any forum. It's simply not a to…

The differences between men and women are a legitimate topic of scientific inquiry, and therefore discussion. It should certainly be reasonable to explore whether differences in traits leads to differences in preferences or interests such as occupation.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#239

Post by threeseed »

ng12 wrote: post #144
threeseed wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a ridiculous comment. (a) There is no consistent world view for tens of millions of people distributed across the globe, (b) there is no research, none, that specifically states that women are genetically predisposed to be less suited to engineering and (c) there is no clear rules about what aspects of our biology are required to be a great engineer.

I mean this stuff has been studied for years: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3030621/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4129348/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4157091/ Maybe these studies are wrong, maybe the conclusions Damore drew were wrong (I certainly think they are). However, I think witch-hunting people for asking questions about sensitive topics is a much more clear and…

I just don't think you understand the problem here.

Nobody is arguing that men and women aren't biologically different. Of course they are. The point is whether those biological differences significantly affect your ability to be a professional engineer.

And you or Damore have provided zero evidence of this.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#240

Post by viridian »

threeseed wrote: post #199
viridian wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I largely agreed with the memo. I have coworkers and friends who fell on either side of the camp, but more in the agree camp than disagree. Should we just purge half the developers in Columbus for Silicon Valley wrongthink? edit: looks like thenayr updated his post a couple of times since my reply. When written only the first two lines were present.

(1) Your anecdotal evidence is literally worthless. You need to provide some statistics that 50% of developers support him. I can easily self select 100% of developers who disagree with Damore. (2) If you agree/disagree with Damore that's great. It's your right as a person to have opinions and no company can criticise you for that. What you can't do however is publicise these issues on any forum. It's simply not a to…

In resp to 2)

He wrote the memo in response to an event he attended where they asked for feedback. Are you saying that you can't provide feedback on a topic that a talk is about if you come to the "wrong" conclusion? I've attended diversity events and have seen opinions expressed in the open, to executives even, that were far less progressive than Damore's interpretation. I think this is just a coastal thing, having topics like diversity be verboten seems silly if we are also having meetings about, setting up programs for, and shifting our non-tech->tech career plotting to favor diverse candidates.

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