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The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

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Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#231

Doing some back of the envelope math, US gov revenue is 3.31 trillion and the population size is 323.1 million. Which leaves about $10244 per capita to play with. How would a BI work, give people $7k per year and save 3k for military and basic services? Seems like BI would need big tax increases to become viable.

One argument, although I haven't run the numbers, is that most of the money would be clawed back for anyone making over a certain income level. Below that, the person is able to keep an increasing amount of money.

So net-net, it's only the bottom end of the income levels that keep the entire payment.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any qualms around taking names out of titles.

And yet here we are discussing an article with Sam Altman's name in the title, as is rather often the case on the topic of UBI, and you essentially arguing that this is a good thing.

I suspect we'd be discussing this article even if Sam Altman's name wasn't in the title.

EDIT: Also, I wouldn't say that it's necessarily a good thing that we're discussing this. Moreso, my point is that the value of a piece of writing isn't completely disconnected from who wrote it, nor should it be.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#233

The question I’m interested in: How do we unlock maximum human potential? Last I checked, welfare does the opposite of this. It helps people merely subsist, not strive for greatness. Then he goes on to compare YC to basic income. Seriously? They take a share in your company and help you develop it. That isn't money for nothing. If he weren't a millionaire and the current president of YC, would we keep seeing articles…

You gotta understand - in tech - a company's brand value is important for early adopters and legitimacy.

Part of that brand has to be 'benevolence'.

In tech, it's important to be seen as 'the good guys'.

'We're on a cause to help, the money is secondary' - is the basis for a SV company brand.

Understand that the materiality of the benevolence is irrelevant. Only the perception.

The soon to be Princess Merkle (or whatever) and Angelina Jolie spend a little bit of time making speeches written for them - and all of a sudden they are 'amazing, altruistic people' - irrespective of their actual commitment. And it's bizarre how intelligent people eat it up and believe it. We ignore the middle aged lady down the street who volunteers at the Salvation Army two days a week about it and doesn't say a peep about it, doesn't put it on her resume.

So the dissonance between the 'reality' of some way to help and the words of the auteur don't really matter that much.

I don't entirely believe this is just all for show or disingenuous, but I do also believe that it's part of the resume building elements of individuals and organizations.

Remember Google's original premise was to do something about 'ads that were destroying the internet' and to 'do no evil'.

This PR and brand positioning - even if everyone on the inside has fully drunk the kool-aid and believes it to be true. In fact, it works better when founders drink their own kool-aid.

But to say that YC is doing more good for humanity than Airbus ... is debatable.

Just some very minor legislation that changed how drugs and medical services are priced ... could yield some pretty big social change in terms of quality of access etc..

So we don't want to be too cynical, just enough to recognize that public figures calling for some moral thing usually have something indirect to gain from it personally.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#234

There's two issues that I don't think have been adequately addressed, or that I missed, in the banter over this issue. 1) What would stop us from recreating the inefficient welfare state that already exists on top of this new one when some people inevitably blow their UBI on drugs/cheetos/whatever and don't have money for rent? It seems that for this to work we'd have to maintain some intestinal fortitude to say "no"…

My answers, maybe not the same as yours. 1) Let people make their own decisions and don't try to be their caretakers. 2) UBI should be universal. Ideally the impetus would not be on the US government or any other local government to implement it. Let's not conflate their responsibilities further, they are a large enough centralized point of failure.

> Let people make their own decisions and don't try to be their caretakers.

That's some harsh darwinism that seems to go against the principle of UBI. You are mentally unfit (young, ill, sick, depressed, ...) ? Here is some cash, good luck with the wolves.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#236
post #165
post #128

The UBI debate is fundamental to how we perceive society and what kind of society we want to build into the future. If one's idea of human society is people working to earn money. Fullstop. And those who are better at it are the be all and end alls of human civilization and progress and the ultimate aspiration. Then words like lazy, people will not do anything, arguments that are generic enough to block any action, a…

"The other way is thinking of the billions of brains wasted every generation just trying to survive, exactly what humans did 2000 years ago. Now imagine if all these brains could be freed and god knows how much innovation, progress and intellectual output can be unlocked into a completely different kind of society. That's a vision." It's not so cut and dry. I don't believe that incentives under UBI will lead to great…

> what guaranteed monthly checks does to ambition

Do you think it's a coincidence that that check is only guaranteed in the absence of ambition? You've seen the perverse incentives of means-tested welfare, not the effects of a UBI.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#237
Sam talked right over something very important. He points out that poor people have a hard time making rent and buying food. He then notes that it was difficult to give them money without affecting their subsidies. I've said before, if you give poor people money the first thing that will change is their rent. Every time the government make money for something more available the price of that something goes up - see housing (lower interest rates increase prices) and student loans (no explanation needed).

IMHO the key is not to give people money, but to reduce the cost of their existence. Get rid of the mortgage deduction. Reduce or eliminate property taxes on homes. Heck, put a cap on what percentage of a home price can be borrowed.

I agree that unlocking many peoples potential may require freeing them financially, but I don't agree that you do it by handing out money.

While I'm ranting, I'd expect someone in tech to be able to model or simulate a hundred million person economy and figure out how to get desired outcomes rather than jump on some popular untested idea like BI. Kudos for trying to test it though, but it's not a real test unless it's economy-wide (rents won't really increase if 0.1 percent of the people get free money).

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#238
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly if you are going to give me free money + tax the hell out of me for working hard and going above and beyond I'll just relax and play video games and work on personal projects on my monthly stipend.

Ok but your personal project could be a new video game that nets you millions. That’s the whole point of UBI.

"nets you millions"

probably not if

"tax the hell out of wealth"

... right?

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#239
post #19
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The math doesn't work and has never worked. UBI proponents will never talk math because it doesn't add up, even with the most casual analysis. $12k is the cited number that you see a lot in basic income discussions. That's just over the poverty level. That's not enough to live on and it's practically a bonus for some members of this site. It's not enough to do anything with. Even upon receiving that, many people woul…

I mean, tax the hell out of wealth. The math has never been the problem; it's always been taxing the wealthy that causes the conversation to die.

if everything you do that yields wealth gets taxed to death, then pretty much no one will do anything that will generate wealth just to give it away to everyone else... it's a zero sum game that only idiots will play.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Bitcoin, those who don't own coins can at any point vote to take away all the coins from those who do. That's exactly the same problem that the founders were worried about. There isn't any sort of fancy historical imagination that's needed.

> With Bitcoin, those who don't own coins can at any point vote to take away all the coins from those who do. Can you expand on that?

The way the Bitcoin protocol works is that there is a worldwide vote every ten minutes or so to decide how much money everyone owns. So when people say they own 5 BTC or whatever, what they're really saying is that the political faction that's currently in power recognizes them as having that many Bitcoin. But if a different party wins control of Bitcoin, how much money they're seen as owning could change drastically overnight.
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