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Steam is no longer supporting Bitcoin

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Re: Steam is no longer supporting Bitcoin

#231

Post by Sargos »

openasocket wrote: post #185
Sargos wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... so bitcoin is doomed as a real currency as the prices are only going to get higher and people are not going to pay a $5 transaction fee for a $10 product. How is the bitcoin community rationalizing this seemingly inescapable mathematical failure?

The transaction fees won't grow forever. Generally speaking, they just need to be high enough that miners can turn a profit. What that amount is, I don't know. And the fact that there's a limited number of transactions that can be processed in a single block, and competition between miners to validate transactions as quickly as possible, complicates things.

What keeps the transaction fees from growing forever? If only a certain amount of transactions can be processed when a coin is mined then that means that competition will only grow as bitcoin becomes more widely used. This competition will raise prices yes? Because if you don't have a high bid then you won't get included when the coin is mined. And since coin mining becomes slower and slower over time that means that less windows of opportunity exist for even greater numbers of transactions. It certainly seems like this issue will only get worse unless there's some other factor I don't know about.

Re: Steam is no longer supporting Bitcoin

#232

Post by xorcist »

sliverstorm wrote: post #156
jordigh wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paypal doesn't work well across international boundaries. It's not convenient for IRC tipping. It's not internet money. And it's not my money, it's their money which they usually will give to me at their pleasure. Having family and friends in different countries who use different currencies, let me tell you, Paypal is not the solution I want.

I avoid using PayPal internationally because they make it hard for me to pay in foreign currency denominations (they "helpfully" insist on being my exchange) but I have used it, it was no "worse" really than paying domestically. What makes them bad for you for international? I argue it's not convenient for IRC tipping simply because 1) software is not well-integrated for minimal clicks 2) the other person might not h…

That "helpful" exchange also charges a 3% fee on all currency exchange, on top of their regular fees.

You can insist that they charge you in the same currency as you wish to pay with and your bank will do the exchange at an order of magnitude lower fee. Not everyone knows this. The user interface also doesn't make it very clear (which perhaps surprised no one).

Re: Steam is no longer supporting Bitcoin

#233

Post by retromario »

Klathmon wrote: post #167
greenhouse_gas wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are fees a percentage (.05bc a transaction) or a Flat fee (.05bc a transaction)?

Fees are set as a "flat rate" per transaction, but normally expressed as a fraction of "price over size" So if a fee is 150 "sat/byte" or satoshi's per byte. A satoshi is 0.00000001 of a bitcoin. So if your transaction is 250 bytes (which is average for a single transaction to a single person), then you will pay (250 * 150) satoshis (37500 sat), which is about $5. If your transaction is larger, you'll pay more, if it…

Thanks for the explanation. Why do transactions vary so much in relative size?

Re: Steam is no longer supporting Bitcoin

#234

Post by josefchung »

sliverstorm wrote: post #156
jordigh wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paypal doesn't work well across international boundaries. It's not convenient for IRC tipping. It's not internet money. And it's not my money, it's their money which they usually will give to me at their pleasure. Having family and friends in different countries who use different currencies, let me tell you, Paypal is not the solution I want.

I avoid using PayPal internationally because they make it hard for me to pay in foreign currency denominations (they "helpfully" insist on being my exchange) but I have used it, it was no "worse" really than paying domestically. What makes them bad for you for international? I argue it's not convenient for IRC tipping simply because 1) software is not well-integrated for minimal clicks 2) the other person might not h…

It would be the "not my money" part that is fundamentally different with Paypal. Paypal can choose to withhold this money at any time for any reason, and they have done so in the past. A lot of the money isn't even FDIC insured in the event of bankruptcy etc.

Re: Steam is no longer supporting Bitcoin

#235

Post by alexasmyths »

lifty wrote: post #163
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's better than being on a trajectory where BTC hitting $1m is a real possibility. That world will be terrifying, and it's important for us to think about ways of mitigating or stopping it.

Can you go into more detail as to why that world would be terrifying? Is it because the implications predicted by orthodox monetary theory?

"Is it because the implications predicted by orthodox monetary theory?"

---> Bitcoin is not money There is no 'economics' or 'finance' or anything at play.

It's Tulip Bulbs without the Tulip Bulbs.

There are numbers, being traded back and forth for money 'because'.

There is no way to price BTC - there are no real underlying drivers - just what your cab driver and the guy in your office is willing to pay in that day - for an arbitrary number.

If anything, it's a study in pop culture, memes, and how information flows through social networks and the media.

It's just a number. That's it. God knows why some people want to pay $10K for a number they can't do anything with ... unless of course they believe, for some arbitrary reason someone else well.

Most bubbles are fuelled by speculation that is a multiplier of some underlying activity. But there is no 'underlying' BTC. So it's a study in pop culture. Not monetary theory.

Re: Steam is no longer supporting Bitcoin

#236

Post by tbabb »

ftlio wrote: post #175
jordigh wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having used bitcoins as money, I really want the confirmation times and transaction fees to go back to what they were a year or two ago. I keep hearing that this mythical lightning will fix things, and I sure hope it does. I want internet money. I want to be able to send money to anyone, anywhere in the world, at the drop of a hat, as easy as email. I don't care about speculation or getting rich or avoiding taxes or…

You can create a scarce token with all the qualities you desire in like 5 minutes. Creating 'internet money' with a stable value and network of potential transactees probably looks exactly like Bitcoin's development though.

Bitcoin is not set up to ever be "stable" by any definition.

Real currency has a federal reserve to balance supply against demand and keep the value steady.

BTC has entirely demand-driven value-- which is precisely as steady and predictable as the human mind.

Re: Steam is no longer supporting Bitcoin

#237

Post by chrisco255 »

sliverstorm wrote: post #140
jordigh wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having used bitcoins as money, I really want the confirmation times and transaction fees to go back to what they were a year or two ago. I keep hearing that this mythical lightning will fix things, and I sure hope it does. I want internet money. I want to be able to send money to anyone, anywhere in the world, at the drop of a hat, as easy as email. I don't care about speculation or getting rich or avoiding taxes or…

We've mostly had this for years, in the form of PayPal. Your ID even is your email. The issues with PayPal have mostly been interfacing with fiat currency, which any system will have to deal with, and transaction fees, which any system will have. The real problem IMO is the lack of a de-facto service that everyone all around the world has, and we're kind of in this position: https://xkcd.com/927/

PayPal is a US-based centralized corporation. They're an application with a single point of failure.

Re: Steam is no longer supporting Bitcoin

#238

Post by chrisco255 »

notheguyouthink wrote: post #11
pault wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people are perfectly fine with the instability as long as the price doesn't go _down_.

I'm not - I don't want to buy bitcoin at the moment because I keep waiting for a bit of a dip, I don't want to buy it at a record high. Likewise I don't want to use my bitcoin because it keeps massively "growing" in value. A stable currency is far more usable to me. Bitcoin is very similar to gold at the moment, in that I'm as likely to use it as I am to carry around bricks of gold in my pocket. For different reasons…

We've been seeing record highs for the past 4-6 months though. The likelihood of any dip going below the past 6 month low is pretty low in my opinion. Especially with Lightning network, NASDAQ, other large players getting on board. This may be the last time we see $13K.

Re: Steam is no longer supporting Bitcoin

#239

Post by chrisco255 »

pault wrote: post #36
mancerayder wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless they're trading, in which case they're selling on perceived ups and downs, and in some cases making a killing - at least for now! The bullish trend with periodic pullbacks means profit for the bold / greedy.

Right, but the Bitcoin evangelists have changed their rhetoric in the last few months, claiming that the current price is justified because Bitcoin is a good store of value, since it's obvious to everyone that the transaction infrastructure is a total dumpster fire at the moment and it's difficult to argue that it's so useful as a currency that $12,000/BTC is reasonable.

Bitcoin will fail to scale, until it doesn't any more. There is far too much economic incentive to scale BTC as a payments network for the assorted parties not to work it out eventually. Could one of the other cryptos overtake BTC? Only if they can overcome BTC's network effects. Right now, BTC has 9 years of history and a huge first mover advantage.

Re: Steam is no longer supporting Bitcoin

#240

Post by AgentME »

eterm wrote: post #96
dmm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a recent transaction with a $2 fee: https://blockchain.info/tx/704b0c6c19c8cfe1d16093552d5196a8f... For that $2 a transaction is forever recorded on thousands of nodes in a worldwide consensus network, secured by a huge number of miners. Blockchains are not going to scale to visa level numbers of transactions without huge blocks and de facto centralization. The reasonable alternative is a second transaction la…

Or a second transaction layer, like a bank or VISA? At which point, why not use those same layers over USD instead of over bitcoin?

>Or a second transaction layer, like a bank or VISA?

* They don't transact bitcoin.

* They don't transact your (non)bitcoin in a decentralized way. They alone run the software and are in control of changes and restrictions, including who you're allowed to send to.

* You don't hold the private keys to your (non)bitcoin when it's a bank or VISA or Paypal. They own it for you. They can lock your account and maybe give you the privilege of putting yourself through some asinine process to regain access to it.

The lightning network is a "second layer" that still is decentralized and puts users in control of their own funds.

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