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I have no side code projects to show you

codementor.io

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Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#231

Post by JamesFM »

glangdale wrote: post #222

I sympathize with this guy. I think the "side projects" issue, like "write some code on the whiteboard plz" is a symptom of the dysfunction in our industry. Specifically, a startling proportion of people purportedly working as programmers cannot in fact perform even basic tasks and don't feel shy about pretending that they can. A lot of my issues about the weird side project fetish come down to the fact that this is…

The main dysfunction I see with interviewing is that we’ve abstracted the interview further and further from what you will be doing day to day.

Code on the white board? Why not on a computer? Why not work on some real code for the project? Sign an NDA and work on an actual feature. Try to get closer to what you expect the candidate to do on a daily basis.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#232

Post by dozzie »

sidlls wrote: post #37
TAForObvReasons wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Side projects are for software what a portfolio is for other creative industries. You don't hire a designer sight unseen -- usually you ask for a sample. It makes perfect sense to expect the same of technology.

Only if you believe software development is neither engineering nor science, and is purely creative. It isn't, though, and demanding a portfolio is almost as terrible a practice as Cracking the Coding Interview style interviews.

> Only if you believe software development is neither engineering nor science, and is purely creative.

It's certainly not a science, and it's very rarely engineering. About the creativity, it's a craft. There is some creativity baked in, but about the same amount as for mechanics or carpentry.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#233

Post by warcher »

rco8786 wrote: post #229
warcher wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of programming is real grimy and there’s a lot of skeletons in every closet. Par for the course. I’ve seen it all. The code isn’t the code, it’s a conversation we have about how you think. So many people dragging me in this thread think it’s about the code. It is not. I’m interested in the person. The code is just an artifact and a conversation piece.

Then certainly it’s replaceable, no? Could just as easily say it’s not about the whiteboard, the whiteboard is an artifact and a conversation piece.

Most assuredly. But what are we talking about on a whiteboard? Not the things that I personally am interested in, or the things in my opinion most important to the success of a project.

Honestly the code review isn’t for the obvious rock stars. Anybody can pick them out. It’s for the sleepers who might not get a fair shake but who can deliver.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#234

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

dozzie wrote: post #232
sidlls wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you believe software development is neither engineering nor science, and is purely creative. It isn't, though, and demanding a portfolio is almost as terrible a practice as Cracking the Coding Interview style interviews.

> Only if you believe software development is neither engineering nor science, and is purely creative. It's certainly not a science, and it's very rarely engineering. About the creativity, it's a craft . There is some creativity baked in, but about the same amount as for mechanics or carpentry.

Maybe software development should be considered a trade?

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#235

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

2trill2spill wrote: post #182
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how an I supposed to tell whether they're worth working for without seeing their work?

> And how an I supposed to tell whether they're worth working for without seeing their work? Ask questions, and do you really expect a hiring manager to have work relevant to your interview to show? But you can ask about policy, culture, etc.

So ask candidates questions. You really expect candidates to have work relevant to your interview to show? But you can ask how they deal with problems, cultural preferences, etc.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#236

Post by [deleted] »

warcher wrote: post #31

I’m not mad at you, but as the dude on the other side of the desk, I have to decide whether you can cut it and I’m fine saying no. I could make you do some whiteboard problems, but I think whiteboard problems are pretty far removed from your day to day development and I am uncomfortable relying on them as a proxy for your ability to ship code. I don’t really disagree with your philosophy of working while you’re worki…

[deleted]

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#237

Post by delphinius81 »

dmoy wrote: post #224
calibration263 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not going to do free work for you Our industry could follow after the restaurant industry and implement stages/trialing. You come in and work a full day. If you get the job that days pay shows up on your first paycheck, if not they send you out the door with a check.

That does not work for anyone who currently has a job, unless your current employer has extremely lax moonlighting policies.

True, but a paid short-term contract to do an actual task for the company would work. Knock out a small feature during the night/weekend. Keep it something contained and relatively straight-forward. If they can get it done, it demonstrates the candidate's ability to parse your codebase (so they are learning something they'd need for the job anyway) and they have contributed.

I think most companies just don't want to take the time to set this kind of thing up. Easier to just pass on people that won't do the requisite song and dance.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#238

Post by barbs »

I often feel like there's a silent expectation that you should enjoy certain things if you're a good software developer. Here are some of these things that I definitely don't enjoy:

- Side projects

- Developer conferences

- Meetups

- Hackathons/hack-days

- Tech podcasts

- T-shirts/stickers for frameworks and technologies

I do enjoy software development though, and from what people tell me I'm pretty good at it, so I don't think it's necessary to enjoy these things to get a decent job. It does concern me when I feel like I'm the only one who didn't stay up late to watch the Google I/O streams live (I'm based in Australia)

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#239

Post by cocktailpeanuts »

This is simple. It's Economics 101: Supply and Demand.

1. You work hard to improve yourself and gain more skills that people will want to hire you for.

2. More people will want to hire you

3. Demand goes up, while supply (yourself) is fixed.

4. Your price goes up.

On the other hand, if you care so much about your "life quality" and put absolutely 0 effort to improve yourself outside of work,

1. You don't have much to show other than what you did at current work

2. You are making yourself completely dependent on the company

3. When the company fires you, you have NOTHING to show to others. It's not like you can show people the code you wrote while you were at the previous company (the company owns the code and you're not supposed to share it outside publicly)

4. Since you have nothing to share, less people will get your value and less people will want to hire you

5. Demand goes down, supply fixed.

6. Your price goes down.

You can keep bitching about how the world is unfair and harsh and write some blog post that sounds almost like a beautiful piece of poetry, but that won't change anything, because that's how the world works.

It's not about companies "exploiting" employees by telling the m to work on something during the weekends. It's actually for yourself. If you don't believe that, that's fine, but you will stay a shitty developer and the law of supply and demand will kick in.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#240

Post by [deleted] »

warcher wrote: post #31

I’m not mad at you, but as the dude on the other side of the desk, I have to decide whether you can cut it and I’m fine saying no. I could make you do some whiteboard problems, but I think whiteboard problems are pretty far removed from your day to day development and I am uncomfortable relying on them as a proxy for your ability to ship code. I don’t really disagree with your philosophy of working while you’re worki…

[deleted]
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