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Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#231

Post by bb611 »

romanovcode wrote: post #213
j7ake wrote: post #207

A purely capitalist solution would be to fire all the men and keep only the women because they are doing comparable work for less pay. In a capitalist market why hasn't this happened already ? This is exactly what happened when much of manufacturing moved away from USA to china, but for some reason this has not happened in the male female salary disparity. A company can earn diversiy points and save money by not hiri…

Someone tried this already, didn't go as well as planned. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1168182/Catfights-...

At best a story about someone running a company with no idea of how to hire or manage for culture fit, at worst a fiction made to bring in some cash from the daily mail, a publication generally known for their lack of journalistic depth.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#232

Post by Eridrus »

bandrami wrote: post #216
apk-d wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The confusion here is between "women get paid less on average" and "women get paid less on average because of sexist treatment/assumptions". If the latter, more specific statement is true, then we have a problem. However, if women are paid less because of less career-oriented personal life choices, maybe making an issue out of it is an overreaction. Left-handed people earn less on average than righties. Tall people e…

Why are the motivations of the people paying women important to you? The gap is an outcome of a complex system, and the outcome is what is problematic.

Mandating equality in outcome is probably a stance on fairness that the vast majority of Western society disagrees with. It cuts to the core of what we see as fairness. It's entirely unsurprising that this gets people riled up, though most of it is as the GP said about whether the cause is discrimination or women's own choices.

Personally I think the left in general need to grapple with the fact that we're not all equal, rather than saying that idea is tabboo because it has lead to horrible places before. The fact that the left has largely focussed on suppressing this idea that many people believe (and on an individual level is self evident) rather than tackling it head on is what leads to the backlash against political correctness because people feel like the emperor has no clothes, but they can't say so.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#233

Post by astura »

kamaal wrote: post #202
watwut wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, majority of software developers don't do side projects, especially not those in high paid difficult positions. Those people put all strength they have into work itself. Employers don't even care all that much about side projects. So, it is safe bet. This whole thread is stupid red herring. It has nothing to do with reality of working in corporation. It has zero to do with skills required in those high positions…

>>Well, majority of software developers don't do side projects Most do. The fact that bulk of the software infrastructure from tools to top notch production software is open source says something. >>especially not those in high paid difficult positions. If its really about money, then there are better ways to get paid in a software company. >>Those people put all strength they have into work itself. Which is often a…

Most full time developers have side projects? I find that hard to believe. If you said "most single, childless, under 28 year old developers living in San Francisco have side projects" then that's more believable. Most people don't have time to go to work all day then come home to do unpaid work.

Open source isn't always someone's side project. Lots (most?) open source is professional paid work.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#234

Post by vt100 »

linkregister wrote: post #109
kamaal wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Here's another percentage what percentage of women and men didn't waste a thought on how they looked in their teenage years because they where so obsessed on how computers worked? Most people are not in the job because they like create things or build things. They are there because they want a job and nothing more. And they want a job where (unit of money)/(unit of work) has a higher value. That means they have to…

I find it interesting that HN commenters frequently take it for granted that someone who tinkered with programming at an early age and do side projects is a better performer at work. I have never seen any multiple-data-point evidence presented to support it. Sure, various prominent entrepreneurs used computers as hobbyists (Gates, Zuckerberg), but does that apply to the typical programmer? We all encountered students…

If we did manage produce a study with multiple-data-point evidence supporting it, then should we legislate to compel all businesses to adopt the conclusions and recruit the same way?

The free market already allows founders and backers to back their theories with money and compete in the marketplace.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#236

Post by userpass »

linkregister wrote: post #157
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true. People didn't give two shits about the nerds and the tiny useless portion of the world known as computing they occupied 20 years ago - back then it was less glamorous and less money involved. They scoffed at the morons who not only did computers at work but continued to think, write and do "work" after work! Now theres money involved everyone wants in! Now those same leeches demand to be given the same roles…

So true. People didn't give two shits about the ladies and doing the tiny useless portion of the world known as software they occupied 50 years ago - back then it was less glamorous and less money involved. Yes, women used to dominate software development. Until the money and prestige started coming in, then men started dominating the profession. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programmin...

>Until the money and prestige started coming in, then men started dominating the profession.

But did they complain about sexism at that time? If it's possible for one side to suddenly "dominate" isn't that a sign that it should also go the other way?

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#237

Post by userpass »

linkregister wrote: post #109
kamaal wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Here's another percentage what percentage of women and men didn't waste a thought on how they looked in their teenage years because they where so obsessed on how computers worked? Most people are not in the job because they like create things or build things. They are there because they want a job and nothing more. And they want a job where (unit of money)/(unit of work) has a higher value. That means they have to…

I find it interesting that HN commenters frequently take it for granted that someone who tinkered with programming at an early age and do side projects is a better performer at work. I have never seen any multiple-data-point evidence presented to support it. Sure, various prominent entrepreneurs used computers as hobbyists (Gates, Zuckerberg), but does that apply to the typical programmer? We all encountered students…

What if the group of those quick learners happens to intersect with those that do side projects and "tinkered" with programming at an early age?

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#238

Post by userpass »

tbrownaw wrote: post #145
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In every single industry and craft, those with more work experience are typically paid more than whose with less. There is little difference between "experience programming during a job" and "experience programming for fun". It is the same activity. So of course those with more experience should be expected (on average) to better than those with less. Of course those who seek out more experience due to passion will (…

There is little difference between "experience programming during a job" and "experience programming for fun". It is the same activity. Over of my more recent hobby projects was writing an RSS->IMAP bridge in maybe a couple hundred lines of Python. It has one user (me). This is fairly typical. Until this year, my primary work project was a toolset for streamlining one-off ETL projects. It has parts written in I think…

The complexity of the hobby projects is unbounded and in your control. If you think your hobby projects are too easy or unrelated to your work you can decide to pursue different projects. There is no "sexist" project manager out there that can stop you.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#239

Post by Consultant32452 »

spaceseaman wrote: post #196
Consultant32452 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to believe that you have to believe that literally 100% of tech hiring companies/managers are sexist. If even ONE was not, they'd wind up with all the women because they'd be willing to pay those women more money than every other company. I'm very open to the idea that there's sexism in tech, but the idea that literally 100% of everyone is sexist doesn't seem plausible.

Huh? It's not that the companies are sexist Or the managers are sexist Or the engineers are exist Or you're sexist. That's not what anyone has been saying this whole time - ever. You have completely misunderstood the point. The system is sexist. Not the people in the system, but the system itself (similar arguments exist for police departments being racist - it's not the cops that are, but the system). In this case,…

First of all, the two things you listed are clearly sexist behaviors, even in isolation. Treating women differently than men, whether it's more harshly or with "kid gloves" is sexist behavior. Putting a pinup on the wall of your office is pretty inappropriate for a professional work environment and the reason it was allowed to stand is most likely sexism.

But again, it only takes one workplace, one manager that doesn't treat women more harshly and doesn't allow pinups or have these other sexist behaviors to foil the entire sexist system, because that one employer would get all of these great women who are just as productive for a lower price and would take over their market. It only takes two such employers in a market who are competing for those women to get women up to income parity with men.

I'm not making any arguments whatsoever about sexism in the workplace. I'm only talking about the wage gap. "The system" having these latent sexist rules and behaviors in place almost certainly drives women away. But that's a different problem than whether women engineers make the same amount of money as men for the same work.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#240

Post by broodbucket »

flukus wrote: post #195
broodbucket wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language does evolve, though, for better or for worse. I'm sure the term has contributed to the "nurses must be female" perception, but I doubt renaming the profession is going to do anything

Yes language evolves, but it hasn't in this case and doesn't look to be anytime soon. Compared to much of the language it's remarkably stable. I'm surprised it didn't get changed back when we were changing actress to female actor, air hostess to flight attendant and all those others.

But a nurse is a nurse whether male or female, it's not directly comparable. And since when is the term "actress" not a thing?
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