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Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

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Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#231

Post by SubiculumCode »

ancaster wrote: post #223
SubiculumCode wrote: post #51

In my phd work I was heavily involved in hippocampal segmentation, and I can say with confidence that FSL FIRST is not a state-of-the-art segmentation method. It belongs to an earlier generation of segmentation methods with poorer reliability, which have contributed to a lot of contradictory results in my field of hippocampal development. I would not use it in my research. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273…

Ditto. We developed a nice set of high-res hippocampal atlases[1] and multi-atlas segmentation method to use them[2] and compared it with FSL, and freesurfer and found FSL and freesurfer would often over-estimate segmentations. Good for a first pass because they are both dead-easy to run though. [1] http://cobralab.ca/atlases/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24784800 code here: http://cobralab.ca/software/MAG…

You and your lab do great work. You have my upvote and recommendation, fellow subfielder.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#232

Post by exclusiv »

mothers wrote: post #166
exclusiv wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> drinking has no benefits compared to water. period. "Resveratrol (RSV), a red wine component, and red wine itself exert cardio- and nephroprotective effects by modulating the Nitric Oxide system (NO). Elucidating both upstream and downstream molecular mechanisms of the SIRT-1 pathway is an open field of investigation that can explain its role not only in long-term processes, such as aging, but also in short-term pr…

ok, and will you now cite the studies showing the harm that alcohol does. I shall wait. water has none except in extreme amounts (i'm talking gallons) by the way, anyone can play this game: the benefits of water are virtually limitless: [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11978586 [2] aids in weight loss and metabolic control (alcohol makes you fatter) press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2003-030780 [3] keeps…

I don't need to cite the studies about harm from alcohol.

I was disputing your claim that "drinking has no benefits compared to water. period"

You're clearly wrong on that.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#233

Post by exclusiv »

mothers wrote: post #227
coldtea wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no cost to avoiding casual drinking. You can still attend events, you can still hang with friends and you can still go to a bar (shocking). No monetary cost. There is a fun and flavour cost. It seems that the fun factor never enters your calculations. > Notice how you have no argument that can't be applied to say, heroin. Except heroin is illegal and uncontrolled (can have any crap in it), so I wouldn't ad…

You're missing the point by bringing up irrelevant things like "fun." The legality is also irrelevant as that is a government thing that's outside the scope of the conversation. The point is, water is healthier than alcohol. This is just common sense. The silly fun argument you're making has nothing to do with alcohol unless you're making the stupid assumption that you can't have fun and drink water. The reality is t…

> The reality is this: alcohol is worse than water and alcohol is bad for you.

Except if you're at risk of cardiovascular disease as I mentioned. Water cannot save you there. Why can't you agree? You're ignoring every opposing argument in this thread and making false statements like "alcohol has no benefits over water period".

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#234

Post by exclusiv »

mothers wrote: post #229
coldtea wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're missing the point by bringing up irrelevant things like "fun." They are only "irrelevant" if one only makes decisions based on single one-track brain criterion: "healthy or not". Which you tried to impose upon this conversation, but as it has been repeatedly pointed out, it's not the be all end all. > The reality is this: alcohol is worse than water and alcohol is bad for you. The reality is I could not care…

There's no point in considering criteria that cannot be quantified. The point is that alcohol is unhealthy. Unhealthiness is a relative term. Relative to the default, that is, water. Anyway, you don't seem to have any evidence that alcohol is healthy compared to its downsides other than a silly notion of fun, something that's not exclusive to alcohol. What does alcohol give you that water cannot? Nothing. Social acti…

> There's no point in considering criteria that cannot be quantified.

Sure there is. You claimed that alcohol has no benefits over water. We don't need to quantify absolutely everything to dispute that absurd claim, but point out that the benefits exist.

> The point is that alcohol is unhealthy. Unhealthiness is a relative term. Relative to the default, that is, water.

Again - not true. Water cannot save you from cardiovascular disease. And water doesn't provide any sort of stress relief, taste, or enjoyment unless you're dehydrated.

> evidence that alcohol is healthy compared to its downsides

From the Harvard article I posted: "More than 100 prospective studies show an inverse association between moderate drinking and risk of heart attack, ischemic (clot-caused) stroke, peripheral vascular disease, sudden cardiac death, and death from all cardiovascular causes. (4) The effect is fairly consistent, corresponding to a 25 percent to 40 percent reduction in risk."

"For a 60-year-old man, a drink a day may offer protection against heart disease that is likely to outweigh potential harm (assuming he isn’t prone to alcoholism)."

> What does alcohol give you that water cannot? Nothing.

Not true and already covered.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#235

Post by exclusiv »

mothers wrote: post #230
coldtea wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [5] improves mood Do you really want to compare it to recreational use of alcohol in this aspect?

Yeah, let's do it. I assert water will improve your mood with no downsides when dehydrated. http://www.menshealth.com/health/fastest-way-improve-mood

The parent asked you to compare it to alcoholic drinks, not compare it with lower intake of itself.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#236

Post by mothers »

exclusiv wrote: post #232
mothers wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ok, and will you now cite the studies showing the harm that alcohol does. I shall wait. water has none except in extreme amounts (i'm talking gallons) by the way, anyone can play this game: the benefits of water are virtually limitless: [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11978586 [2] aids in weight loss and metabolic control (alcohol makes you fatter) press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2003-030780 [3] keeps…

I don't need to cite the studies about harm from alcohol. I was disputing your claim that "drinking has no benefits compared to water. period" You're clearly wrong on that.

nope. water also reduces the risk of heart disease [1]

https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/155/9/827/58224/Water-O...

not to mention alcohol has many negative side effects you're not mentioning. it's a home run in favor of water. again, if it's so good for you, would you give it to a child? no, no you wouldn't. why? because overall you know intuitively it's not good for a child.

how about you show me all of the studies of all of the bad things alcohol does for you. water has no negative side effects, by the way. even if you're right (you're not), a small benefit is irrelevant. heroin also has benefits.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#237

Post by mothers »

exclusiv wrote: post #233
mothers wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point by bringing up irrelevant things like "fun." The legality is also irrelevant as that is a government thing that's outside the scope of the conversation. The point is, water is healthier than alcohol. This is just common sense. The silly fun argument you're making has nothing to do with alcohol unless you're making the stupid assumption that you can't have fun and drink water. The reality is t…

> The reality is this: alcohol is worse than water and alcohol is bad for you. Except if you're at risk of cardiovascular disease as I mentioned. Water cannot save you there. Why can't you agree? You're ignoring every opposing argument in this thread and making false statements like "alcohol has no benefits over water period".

wrong.

https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/155/9/827/58224/Water-O...

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#238

Post by surement »

loeber wrote: post #194
surement wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's to hoping they cancel out! It's funny but it's probably fairly accurate. Two 12oz 5% beers per day is not exactly extreme, and evidently many people drink 'this much' without terrible consequences. Articles like this cater mostly to people who are obsessed with articles like this.

> evidently many people drink 'this much' without terrible consequences This assumption reflects an underlying statistical bias: if most people you know exhibit this behavior, then that's what you see as normal. It may very well be the case that the consequences are actually terrible -- they're just hard for you to perceive because they're normalized by everyone exhibiting them.

Then the people who don't drink would be outrageously more successful.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#239

Post by mothers »

exclusiv wrote: post #235
mothers wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, let's do it. I assert water will improve your mood with no downsides when dehydrated. http://www.menshealth.com/health/fastest-way-improve-mood

The parent asked you to compare it to alcoholic drinks, not compare it with lower intake of itself.

from a given level of hydration you can choose to drink more water or drink alcohol. i've covered one of the scenarios. at best both alcohol and water change your mood. of course as we all know what has a desirable mood change and the other doesn't at high consumption levels.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#240

Post by gozur88 »

intro-b wrote: post #177
gozur88 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a safer bet that healthy people are more likely to be moderate drinkers than it is to assume moderate drinking will extend your life.

I wonder if there's also a social component with moderate drinking along with other factors; being able to enjoy drinks with colleagues after work or catch up with friends at a bar are culturally acceptable activities that seem to align with the relationship between a close social circle and longevity/health, especially amongst middle age and older adults.

Here again, though, you have the same correlation/causation problem. People without a close social circle may not have one because they're too sick to get out much, or they're on a drug regimen that makes them drowsy or grouchy.
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