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WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

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Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#231

Post by xienze »

anigbrowl wrote: post #207
xienze wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might want to take a look at that, it supports what he's saying but as is typical of these fact checking sites, couches it in lots of "well yes but" or "broadly correct, but 'needs context'". I mean look at his statement on India: > Trump: "India will be allowed to double its coal production by 2020. Think of it. India can double their coal production. We're supposed to get rid of ours." > India does have…

Context matters a great deal. If you treat facts as binary variables then you're not going to develop a very sophisticated understanding of any issue.

Agree but the picture they paint with this _is_ a binary one. Anything less than a "his statement is 100% factual, no additional commentary needed!" is treated as evidence that Trump is a big fat liar by people like OP.

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#232

Post by enknamel »

chc wrote: post #212
enknamel wrote: post #133

There is a massive difference between caring about the environment and following the Paris Climate Agreement. We as a country can do a ton to reduce our damage to the environment. However it is going to be a drop in the bucket to what some third world and massively developing countries will contribute. Follow Amdahl's Law. The biggest emitters should get the biggest spanking. This is why Paris Agreement is almost com…

What you're talking about here is an artifact of your sampling method, not an actual problem. China emits roughly double the amount that the US does, but they have four times the population. That is actually a much better number than ours.

Yes but if you care about the environment it doesn't matter. Reducing the overall emissions is all that matters. And giving the biggest polluter a free pass to keep polluting is insanity.

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#233

Post by tmh79 »

hathawsh wrote: post #174
tmh79 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Background: I am a [former] republican, grew up in flyover country, from a family full of trump supporters, now I live in California. I believe that the red states are going to languish for the following reasons: 1) Brain drain as young ambitious people leave 2) Public services (education, roads, etc) decrease in quality, increase in expense 3) Older folks increasingly capture all of the economic gains allowed in sma…

I think it's more reasonable to apply your thinking to counties rather than states. I'm in a deep red state, but the county I'm in is slowly turning blue as tech companies move in and startups grow. Also, red counties are where most of the food comes from. The farmers who have made it this far (through extreme competition in the food market) are quite innovative, clever, and ambitious. I wouldn't count them out. They…

Agreed.

There seem to be a lot of microscale effects where people are moving from [small town where they grew up] to [moderately sized regional center], and most of my experience comes from seeing family members and friends still living in [small town where they grew up].

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#234

Post by alpha_squared »

sacheendra wrote: post #211
alpha_squared wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few counter-points: - US, per capita, has the highest CO2 emissions of any developed country [0] - It's a little unfair (depending on your idea of fairness) for developed countries to have benefitted from industrialization and polluting the environment only to close the gate behind them and blame other countries for trying to do the same and catch up in development. - It's expensive to force nations barely entering…

Just a nitpick. According to the list you referenced, the developed country with the highest CO2 emissions per capita is Luxembourg. The US comes second. The US is second, the spirit of your point stands though. Another surprising thing I learned from the list, US emissions have decreased significantly from 19.6 to 16.4 (tonnes per capita) during the obama administration.

> the developed country with the highest CO2 emissions per capita is Luxembourg. The US comes second.

You're right, that was an oversight on my part.

> Another surprising thing I learned from the list, US emissions have decreased significantly from 19.6 to 16.4 (tonnes per capita) during the obama administration.

This may actually be, in large part, due to the EPA. It would be interesting to see data for more recent years as well as end of this year (if it's not too soon) to see how it all changes.

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#235

Post by refurb »

alpha_squared wrote: post #177
toisanji wrote: post #90

I would read the full speech from Trump, he makes some good points, although im sure some of it is false and not sure how it compares to other factors. http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/01/politics/trump-paris-agreement... "For example, under the agreement, China will be able to increase these emissions by a staggering number of years -- 13. They can do whatever they want for 13 years. Not us. India makes its participation…

A few counter-points: - US, per capita, has the highest CO2 emissions of any developed country [0] - It's a little unfair (depending on your idea of fairness) for developed countries to have benefitted from industrialization and polluting the environment only to close the gate behind them and blame other countries for trying to do the same and catch up in development. - It's expensive to force nations barely entering…

- US, per capita, has the highest CO2 emissions of any developed country

It also has one of the highest GDP (output) per capita. Output requires energy input.

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#236

Post by srdev »

noonespecial wrote: post #98
oh_sigh wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment was reasonable until you called him "commander in shit-the-bed". I'd suggest holding back on that kind of rhetoric if you want people to consider your opinion.

Don't think you should be dv'd either. We need to remember to respect the office even when we don't respect the person. Eventually "our person" will once again hold the office of POTUS and we'll need it to be a respectable position of power.

That sentiment hasn't been the norm for at least 8 years. Obama was highly disrespected.

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#237

Post by joshualross »

xienze wrote: post #162
joshualross wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple thoughts - what is equally? The US is the historically the largest contributor of greenhouse gases by a wide margin[1]. And last I checked, a vast majority of people support the agreement[2], including half of trump supporters. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/21/countrie... [2] http://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/paris_agre...

> The US is the historically the largest contributor of greenhouse gases by a wide margin Sure, but guess what: China is right behind us. History means squat. They're a major polluter _right now_. Why are they not held to the same standard we are?

China has a a few hundred thousand metric tons before they are close to the historical pollution we have contributed. And last I checked, they are still committed to taking action[1]... if only we could say the same.

Things I've learned in life(mostly the hard way) include that fair is not a thing and does not exist.

[1]https://www.c2es.org/international/key-country-policies/chin...

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#238

Post by anigbrowl »

muninn_ wrote: post #110
zaksoup wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red states have lower GDP, higher poverty, lower education, and are largely subsidized by blue states through federal grants. I am not implying causation and there are other interesting facts (lower cost of living relative to wages in red states) but as it stands now if blue and red split it doesn't seem like it's all that controversial to imply red would suffer. A little bit of googling turns up many interesting art…

You missed his/her point. We go on and on about this difference between the coast and, as those on the coast have dubbed them, the "flyover states" and then people act all smug about how they are leading to their own destruction and what not instead of being responsible and trying to educate and help. It's, frankly, pretty pathetic that this attitude is so pervasive. I'm not sure what you (not you specifically) are t…

While I agree that many coastal liberals are often smug, the notion that people in other areas are groaning in the throes of oppression is not really founded in fact. Large parts of the country have great contempt for the more liberal enclaves on the coast and pour scorn on the people and civic societies established there. Try spending some time reading a conservative forum like freerepublic.com, though you might need eye bleach after you're done. There are a lot of decent, hardworking, and hard-done-by people in the midwest, South, other inland regions etc. etc. who don't want their economies exploited or their dignity insulted, and there are also some vicious mean-spirited people who habitually wish horrible suffering on others.

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#239

Post by wyldfire »

Bud wrote: post #22
IChangedCareers wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Texas runs its own power grid. Not the same interest as NY and CA in particular. They are probably actually cleaner than both combined?

Why would you just plain guess at TX being cleaner than CA, the clear leader among all US states on climate issues, without bothering to look it up? Careless and lazy.

For pollution in general, California might be a leader for policies enforcing cleanliness.

But for clean power generation, they're not the leader, Vermont is [1]. California is ranked #8 (Texas is ranked #22). This is based on a ratio of the power consumed, not raw power generation total.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_electri...

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#240

Post by ahh »

mmanfrin wrote: post #218
ahh wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are just echoing the politician's syllogism: we must do something, this is something, we must do this. Your point that we could not get anything better is not an excuse for doing something bad .

We must do this and more . Do not let perfect be the enemy of the future of this earth.

How, given arguments in GP, does this actually do anything of value? Note that I do not consider signaling how much we care as valuable.
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