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Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

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Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#231

Post by rocqua »

jfaucett wrote: post #16

Does anyone else find the internet market odd? Up until now net neutrality and other policies have given us the following: 1. Massive monopolies which essentially control 95% of all tech (google, facebook, amazon, microsoft, apple, etc) 2. An internet where every consumer assumes everything should be free. 3. An internet where there's only enough room for a handfull of players in each market globally i.e. if you have…

These points are the result of a fully efficient global market, combined with network effects.

The first makes it possible for anyone to be almost perfect in finding and using the best service in any field. The second makes it so that more users makes a service better.

I'd argue that this has led to overall better services, though at the cost of centralized powers.

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#232

Post by crazy1van »

jballanc wrote: post #9
1ba9115454 wrote: post #2

How much of this can just be fixed by the free market? If I feel an ISP is limiting my choices wouldn't I just switch?

How many ISPs do you have to choose from? Personally, I have two: Comcast and AT&T. Comcast has been a nightmare recently, with almost weekly outages and frequent periods of severely degraded bandwidth. AT&T (even their supposed "Fiber" offering) requires a working copper twisted-pair RJ11 outlet where the gateway is to be installed, which I don't have and which would require an electrician and multiple holes in my w…

> Now what if Comcast decided to charge more for access to HN?

Then, you might want get that RJ11 outlet installed. Easy fix.

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#233

Post by rocqua »

jamescostian wrote: post #127
jfaucett wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How do you compete against competing services owned by ISPs?" Good question. I guess you wouldn't need to as long as the ISP market is competitive. You might go to another competitor and convince them your product is good or your product can help/augment the service they are currently providing. The invisible hand would be really interesting to watch there.

> I guess you wouldn't need to as long as the ISP market is competitive How would it be competitive? If my ISP released its own Netflix and throttled my connection to Netflix to the point where Netflix seemed extremely slow but my ISP's version of Netflix was super fast, there would be no competition. My ISP would dominate. > You might go to another competitor and convince them your product is good or your product ca…

The point is that NN would be less important if there were more consumer ISPs around. Specifically if consumers had more choice.

I should note that competition amongst ISPs wouldn't do much to prevent zero-rating, which is still problematically anti-competitive.

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#234

Post by rocqua »

jfaucett wrote: post #115
learc83 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say your idea has merit. How do you compete against competing services owned by ISPs? If your alternative is that ISP are prohibited from owning content producers, you're the only one pushing that plan. The only serious alternative being offered is that the invisible hand will deal with all the problems.

"How do you compete against competing services owned by ISPs?" Good question. I guess you wouldn't need to as long as the ISP market is competitive. You might go to another competitor and convince them your product is good or your product can help/augment the service they are currently providing. The invisible hand would be really interesting to watch there.

Market forces do very little against zero-rating. It's not anti-consumer so users see little need to switch. It is very much anti-competitive though.

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#235

Post by zepto »

natoliniak wrote: post #96
zepto wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes no sense. Using just your skills and barely any money, you cannot acquire a corpus of decades of historical searches and click data nor can you employ the thousands of human raters, both of which Google uses to make the search algorithm work. Please stop spreading this misleading idea.

>you cannot acquire a corpus of decades of historical searches and click data nor can you employ the thousands of human raters No, but as soon as Google starts abusing their monopoly status by turning into something reminiscent of Alta Vista, a new search engine will sprout up. Google itself grew like wildfire in the late 90s not only because it offered superior search results, but because of the massive global reach…

How will this new search engine 'spring up' if nobody can build a better search engine because the resources are not available?

You are right that net neutrality enabled Google's growth, but the barriers to a Google competitor are different now, and far more difficult to overcome than what Google faced.

Google is not trusted, but people use it because there is no alternative and the barriers to an alternative being built are monumental.

https://www.cnet.com/news/people-trust-nsa-more-than-google-...

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#236

Post by zepto »

nannePOPI wrote: post #74
zepto wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes no sense. Using just your skills and barely any money, you cannot acquire a corpus of decades of historical searches and click data nor can you employ the thousands of human raters, both of which Google uses to make the search algorithm work. Please stop spreading this misleading idea.

And why you should get something without work. Also nobody forces me or you to use google. It is a free choice, if a better search engine comes up we can use it and nobody forbids you to use other search engine or any site. With net neutrality you are free. Without net neutrality you are bound to the services of the friends of the ISP. You have cable tv 2.0 no more freedom

Net neutrality is a prerequisite for competition, agreed.

However a better search engine cannot 'just come up', because Google is the result of billions of dollars of investment over more than 2 decades using data that is not publicly available.

Stop pretending otherwise.

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#237

Post by rocqua »

liveoneggs wrote: post #30
jfaucett wrote: post #16

Does anyone else find the internet market odd? Up until now net neutrality and other policies have given us the following: 1. Massive monopolies which essentially control 95% of all tech (google, facebook, amazon, microsoft, apple, etc) 2. An internet where every consumer assumes everything should be free. 3. An internet where there's only enough room for a handfull of players in each market globally i.e. if you have…

The internet is the greatest barrier-lowering device to starting a business ever conceived. You can, using just your skills and barely any money, compete with google and facebook this afternoon ! (google and amazon will even give you a month to try for free) Your chances at winning are pretty low, but eventually someone will do it.

The value of a product like facebook depends on more than just the quality of the product. It is the userbase where a lot of the value comes from.

This has the effect of essentially creating a huge barrier to entry.

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#238

Post by Dirlewanger »

jpadkins wrote: post #172
KZeillmann wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure -- let's say free market is a solution? Free market only works if I have choice . Right now, my only choice for internet service is Comcast. Free market won't do a thing until I have actual choices here.

and why do you only have comcast as a choice? Government granted monopolies. Void all local contracts with ISPs (cable or telco), and you will have choices.

>you will have choices.

No, companies will go with the cheaper route i.e. continue the comfy collusions they have now. You're insane if you think they'll magically start sharing their own infrastructures with each other.

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#239

Post by billions »

KZeillmann wrote: post #83
bkeroack wrote: post #72

I've written it before and I'll write it again (despite the massive downvotes from those who want to silence dissent): Title II regulation of the Internet is not the net neutrality panacea that many people think it is. That is the same kind of heavy-handed regulation that gave us the sorry copper POTS network we are stuck with today. The free market is the solution, and must be defended against those who want Europea…

Sure -- let's say free market is a solution? Free market only works if I have choice . Right now, my only choice for internet service is Comcast. Free market won't do a thing until I have actual choices here.

Government handed comcast monopoly over the wire to your door. Now we're sweeping the problem under the rug by policing what goes down the wire. The way to get more choices is to let anyone compete to be your ISP, by liberating the wire. Remember how long distance phone service improved in the 90's?
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