Why Germany Educates International Students for Free • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#231

Post by faragon » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 7:11 PM UTC

wolfgke wrote: post #225

faragon wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TLDR: In many Germany's neighboring countries it is common to know German on a decent level - at least if you plan to work in Germany. If there was I second language from a neighboring country in which work should be accepted, this should rather be French (for France and Belgium) instead of English. Sure, e.g. I did myself one year of German courses (I forgot most of it, because it was long time ago). In my opinion…

You explicitly talked of "neighboring countries" of Germany - here I provided evidence that the situation is different. > being ha handicap having to learn French or German for a temporary job Here I rather see the problem: The people only want a temporary job in Germany - so they see Germany just as a stepping stone for their career. If I were a staff manager at a company, I would be very cautious to hire such a per…

Well, for neighboring countries I meant EU countries. You can have near unlimited low-qualification worker supply from your strictly speaking neighboring countries, but not necessarily world-class skilled workers, specially, if those workers willing to move from one country to another can pick options with less conditions. Also, you can have potential supply, not willing to move, just because of nationalist stuff (forced "integration") or other elements that could make a country less attractive than another.

Don't get me wrong: I would love Germany, and all EU countries getting as much talent as possible, from the internal EU area, and also from other countries as well. I'm worried about nationalism and the lack of pragmatism ruining job flexibility and business attractiveness, so European companies have such a huge handicap for competing in the international market.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#232

Post by MichailP » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 7:45 PM UTC

woodpanel wrote: post #201

MichailP wrote: post #112

While I think it is good for both Germany and students, it probably has a bit of geopolitics mixed in. All those young people, if they return to their home countries, will be naturally more oriented toward German products thus indirectly making German economy stronger. I saw a similar theme in Russia, where there is even a specialized university for this [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples%27_Friendship_Uni…

Very odd statement to include economical geopolitics here. Do you really believe that German companies lobbied each of the 16 German state-governments to lure in foreign students just so they buy German stuff back at home? Wouldn't it make more sense to influence foreigners directly with this thing called "marketing"? If you're Adidas, why the hell go through this hassle and conspire with > to use the german educatio…

Not just common consumer goods, but say, electrical engineer educated in Germany would be inclined to use Siemens software and hardware, and he/she would need to put extra effort to learn about alternatives.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#233

Post by markdown » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 9:43 PM UTC

wolfgke wrote: post #207

markdown wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds complicated. I can see the logic in separating kids into groups of equivalent aptitude. I wonder how they arrived at the 5th class being where the categorisation happens. I appreciate you explaining it, thank you.

> Sounds complicated. What mostly makes it very complicated is that education is administered on a federal state level instead of national level - so it is different in each federal state. If I were to describe it for "my" federal state, the description would be simpler. > I wonder how they arrived at the 5th class being where the categorisation happens. The most plausible explanation to me is "historical". But I can…

People (myself included) usually have very strong ideas about how they think their children should be raised and educated. I appreciate your informative responses. Thank you.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#234

Post by fbender » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 10:10 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #187

sparkling wrote: post #182

The article is wrong on so many ways. The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however that is not what is actually happening. 41% of students abandon their studies before they have a degree. Out of the students that finish their degree, only 36% remain in Germany. Out of those remaining, more than half of them need more than 1 year(!) to land a job, indicating that they may not have the…

Wonder if they should have entrance exams to fix the issue? That might weed out the unqualified candidates.

In many many cases, there are processes to assess a student's qualification. In general, if you don't have a German degree or did not reach a certain level, you will have to go through a vetting process – except for those studies were there are too little candidates to warrant a selection process.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#235

Post by fbender » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 10:20 PM UTC

ed_balls wrote: post #221

jernfrost wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for Germany, but e.g. in Norway and the Netherlands which I know best, there are a lot of nice tech jobs and you don't have to speak a word of the native language. I know because I've had colleagues over a decade who don't speak the native language and who are still just fine. Most tech companies today use english as work language anyway. Not necessarily social talk among people, but usually in meetings…

You can survive sure, but I'd be really hard and expensive to start a company. How am I suppose to read german law and fill government forms? Have a lawyer to everything for me? Thanks no thanks.

You'll have a hard time starting a company or anything without consulting a lawyer or legal service in Germany. And you won't be taken seriously e.g. by banks etc. Fortunately, cost for legal advice on this matter is significantly less than in the US, AFAIK. Plus, you have the bonus of being able to do business in 27+ countries with marginal or no extra effort.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#236

Post by dzonga » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 10:35 PM UTC

sparkling wrote: post #182

The article is wrong on so many ways. The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however that is not what is actually happening. 41% of students abandon their studies before they have a degree. Out of the students that finish their degree, only 36% remain in Germany. Out of those remaining, more than half of them need more than 1 year(!) to land a job, indicating that they may not have the…

assume life is a zero-sum game. no it's not!!

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#237

Post by MarkMc » Mon, May 01, 2017, 2:23 AM UTC

zackmorris wrote: post #230

sparkling wrote: post #182

The article is wrong on so many ways. The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however that is not what is actually happening. 41% of students abandon their studies before they have a degree. Out of the students that finish their degree, only 36% remain in Germany. Out of those remaining, more than half of them need more than 1 year(!) to land a job, indicating that they may not have the…

I'm concerned that comments like this are rising up in Hacker News lately. I'm not going to downvote it because it got me to write this post so has some intrinsic merit. But it strikes me as, to be blunt, unenlightened. Lots of facts but no deeper sentiment. I would argue that the last sentence, the "may sound harsh" one, is most important - that as countries and populations reach certain levels of affluence and infl…

I agree with you about education and immigration - I would love to see more OECD countries adopt Germany's position on university fees and foreign admission.

But I would not say it's worrying to find the opposite view as the majority opinion on HN. I want to see a diverse range of opinions expressed frankly but respectfully - and that is the tone of sparkling's comment.

When I disagree with the top comment on an HN story, below it will often be a great rebuttal.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#238

Post by sufiyan » Mon, May 01, 2017, 3:08 AM UTC

zackmorris wrote: post #230

sparkling wrote: post #182

The article is wrong on so many ways. The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however that is not what is actually happening. 41% of students abandon their studies before they have a degree. Out of the students that finish their degree, only 36% remain in Germany. Out of those remaining, more than half of them need more than 1 year(!) to land a job, indicating that they may not have the…

I'm concerned that comments like this are rising up in Hacker News lately. I'm not going to downvote it because it got me to write this post so has some intrinsic merit. But it strikes me as, to be blunt, unenlightened. Lots of facts but no deeper sentiment. I would argue that the last sentence, the "may sound harsh" one, is most important - that as countries and populations reach certain levels of affluence and infl…

Having seen many of my more affluent friends going abroad for Uni and just spending their time and parents money on booze and girls, there is a huge element of truth in what OP says. It is a subsidy for the rich and affluent.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#239

Post by nshelly » Mon, May 01, 2017, 5:42 AM UTC

1maginary wrote: post #215

nshelly wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly. Learning a foreign language not widely spoken outside of Europe, while also taking college-level math and science courses is a high barrier to entry. This is the primary reason Germany is able to pull this off. If a high-quality college education were free in an English-speaking country, say Australia, there would be a lot more international students willing and able to enroll there. After graduating, y…

>Yes, exactly. Learning a foreign language not widely spoken outside of Europe, while also taking college-level math and science courses is a high barrier to entry Obligatory "anecdote isn't data" but as someone in a third world country who seriously considered studying in Germany, the language learning aspect was the least of my worries. I got to a B2 proficiency level in around a year and to C1/C2 within a year of…

> I got to a B2 proficiency level in around a year and to C1/C2 within a year of that

Congrats! This is no small achievement for a language not widely spoken outside of Europe. I went on a summer language immersion to Germany (living with a host family) and began picking up the language that way, in addition to listening to DW, radio, sports matches, etc. to get to that level. While I've only lived a small time in German-speaking countries, it's served me well with the some great conversations and connections at cultural and engineering-related events around the world, making life that much richer.

Anyways, sounds like linguistics might be your thing -- I'm sure you'll be successful at whatever route you go down.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#240

Post by yowkow » Mon, May 01, 2017, 6:07 AM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #9

yowkow wrote: post #2

Certainly laudable. How does one "stick around" after graduation - do you have to learn German?

do you have to learn German? Why wouldn't you want to? It's a lovely country, with a huge body of literature that you'd deprive yourself of if you refuse to learn the language. And why isolate yourself from the locals? Weird attitude, that.

Ok. I apologize. I should have been clearer.

By "stick around" I really meant stay/work for a few years (like 5 or 6 years) not settle down permanently in Germany. And yes, I agree if you going to live permanently in a country you should know the local language and also imbibe the local culture to a certain point.

Thanks.