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Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

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Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert in Barry Schwartz but I think you're​ just making his argument stronger. Focusing on the usage of the term "engineer" when what was in discussion was the traffic lights, which was much important, shows such a shortsightness. Of course, everybody was just doing their job, just following the rules.

You are being played. Jarlstrom was informed that he wasn't entitled to hold himself out as an engineer and agreed not to do so. The reasons not to do that are valid, for the simple reason that it pretends to a level of expertise he does not have, when trying to influence how public infrastructure is run. I have said many times that Jarlstrom could simply have pitched his idea without claiming to be an engineer. Why…

> Jarlstrom was informed that he wasn't entitled to hold himself out as an engineer and agreed not to do so. The reasons not to do that are valid, for the simple reason that it pretends to a level of expertise he does not have, when trying to influence how public infrastructure is run.

Actually, from the documents provided, he initially made the claim that he held an engineering degree in electronics, which is hardly holding himself out as a registered engineer in the state of Oregon. In a later email he commented to the board that he was an excellent engineer, which may in fact be the case given that he held a degree in engineering. Again, there is no attempt to misrepresent himself as licensed in Oregon.

The first incident is a huge stretch to say he was attempting to mislead the public that he was a registered professional engineer. In fact, if he was a Swedish engineer, regardless of whether they regulate the industry or not, it is a factual statement to say he is a Swedish engineer and is not an attempt to make false claims of his credentials. The are arguing that he cannot speak of his occupation in another country and perform engineering calculations in the state of Oregon. That is clearly a violation of his free speech.

The second statement that he was an excellent engineer is a little more vague, but it is also a factual statement that he is an engineer. He does not ever claim to be a registered professional engineer in the state of Oregon and it is a valid argument that they cannot prevent him from stating his background in engineering.

If he was a doctor in Sweden, it would be perfectly if he still called himself a doctor in Oregon without implying that he was licensed to practice medicine. He would in fact be, after all, a doctor. Essentially what they are doing is equating the performing of engineering calculations (to back up his theory and present to actual engineers) with the practice of medicine. They are attempting to bolster that with two weak (but possibly valid) claims that he was representing himself as a registered professional engineer in Oregon in the process.

The fact is that the laws in this case are vague enough that they could be used to keep someone quiet for whatever reason--perhaps they didn't like the media making them look bad. Ultimately, that would be up to a judge to decide if they are in fact infringing on his first amendment rights.

> I am a bit depressed to see how easily people are taken in, and abandon reason in favor of their emotional reaction to a piece of obscure public policy

I don't see how, all the documents are right there in the article. And seriously, I have read well over thirty condescending comments from you in this thread with your fake intellectualism and it is a bit much. But hey, why don't you refer me to an essay or something.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#232
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm not mistaken, he is an engineer, and even a licensed one too, just not licensed in the Oregonian jurisdiction.

> If I'm not mistaken, he is an engineer, and even a licensed one too, just not licensed in the Oregonian jurisdiction. You are mistaken: I told you in an earlier reply that the first linked document states he is not licensed to practice in any state.

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Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm not mistaken, he is an engineer, and even a licensed one too, just not licensed in the Oregonian jurisdiction.

No he isn't! Why do you keep asserting this falsehood?

I didn't see your earlier reply. I was traveling across the continent with intermittent network access.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#234
post #224
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are not going to get fined just for calculating the hypotenuse of a triangle in public If the argument is "he said he was an 'engineer' and he isn't licensed", that's fine. And the Board's Final Report contains a lot of language establishing that, and for that he can be fined. But the Board's Report goes out of its way to say that ORS 672.005(c) and ORS 672.002 define "practicing engineering" as quite close to…

If you go around claiming to be a doctor, but don't do anything related to being a doctor and in no way operate as a doctor, then presumably this isn't a crime to be fined. If you tell people you are not a doctor, and you do doctor things, then there's no misunderstanding, and nothing to fine But if you tell people you are a doctor (or let people think you are), when you are not, and you do doctory things, then there…

Don't use metaphor, because they're broken.

In your metaphor "doctor" is a protected term in many jurisdictions, so merely claiming to be a medical doctor is a crime. And practising medicine without a licence is similarly illegal, even if you make it clear that you're not a doctor.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#235
post #4

would you not have to be paid to "practice"

I would argue that payment is not necessarily a requirement. If someone opens a free clinic, should they be allowed to practice medicine without a licence, because it is not really 'practice'?

good point

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#236
I seemed to recall of some accounts of yellow traffic lights times kept deliberately short in order to catch drivers passing during red lights and fine them, and a quick search confirmed this. https://www.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-sho... Probably not related with this case, but anyway...

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#238
post #96
post #89

The issue that the Board has is that he claimed to be an engineer in a public forum. The Boards interpretation of "engineer" in this context was to mean Traffic Engineer. The Board warned Järlström that he was in violation of the Law and asked him to stop claiming to be an engineer, to which he agreed. It was later, when he continued to claim to be an engineer that legal action was taken. It is also of note, and stat…

Completely agreed. He pretty much barked up the one tree that actively cares about use of the title "engineer", and used it in violation of the law (as it is now). Had he sent the letter/formula/math/suggestions to the local state university civil engineering department, the local/state Dept. of Transportation, or the local/state representative, the response would have fallen on less deaf ears, and his use of the tit…

Except he didn't use it in violation of the law. He wasn't performing professional work, nor was he designing something for construction or any of the other defintions of "practicing engineering"

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#239
post #35

Everyone's talking about the title issue, but it's amazing that the Oregon board doesn't believe he should be able to publish or present his ideas. You can go on and on about what it means to be a certain title, but the man should be able to put forth his work and ideas.

But they don't. He's perfectly at liberty to do so, but not to assert professional standing which he lacks in order to make it seem more convincing. Did you read the Board's complaint? At first the asked the Board to investigate the city even though the Board had no jurisdiction to do so. they advised him of this and also cautioned him not to advertise himself as an engineer, in accordance with Oregon's code. He agre…

Except the board has no standing to tell him what he can call himself. Just because they don't want him to use the title doesn't mean they can bend their own laws

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional licensing exists to protect the public at large from fraud. Would you want a public building, say a sports stadium, designed by someone without the proper training? Engineering licenses add a layer of protection and assurance that the person performing the work is truly capable of performing the work.

We were told the same thing about Taxis -- or at least that part of that red tape was to ensure the safety of riders. Yet this company comes along that very aggressively flies in the face of this licensing and the world flocks to it. We can't equate the inexistence of mandated licensing to there not being feedback mechanism for quality, competence, etc. If we did not mandate licensing, don't you think those would eme…

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