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Tech Workers' Values

blog.samaltman.com

231–240 of 276 posts

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#231
These recent interviews with Alan Kay [1][2] cover this topic from a perspective I find valuable. In addition, there are many other relevant presentations he has made and in which he presents his own perspectives and points to the ideas of others like Douglas Englebart, Neil Postman, Seymor Papert, Marshall McLuhan, Francis Bacon, and Thomas Paine [3]

[1] Alan Kay - Inventing the Future Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVUGkuUj28o

[2] Alan Kay - Inventing the Future Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6ZHxUwqPVw

[3] Alan Kay's Reading List http://www.squeakland.org/resources/books/readingList.jsp

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Winning me over is easy. Give me a better deal. If the union job pays 50% more then I will take it. I'd have to be stupid not to. But don't expect my loyalty to the union. As soon as it become a better deal to do something else, I am going to do that thing. I don't care about solidarity, or "crossing the picket line" or whatever. I will take the best deal that is offered to me.

Crossing a picket line is kind of a moral choice where you decide how much value you place on A) the success of that particular strike and B) ever having anything to do with those picketers again. It is weird to talk about in terms of tech, but nevertheless, if there is a union that represents you, ignoring a strike would probably not be free, it would just be a different kind of cost. Maybe how many numbers you get…

> if there is a union that represents you, ignoring a strike would probably not be free, it would just be a different kind of cost

To elaborate on what that cost would be: If a union represents you, it can compel you to go on strike (even for a cause to which you object on ethical or moral grounds).

If you refuse, they can terminate your membership. For a closed shop, that's equivalent to firing you.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because then it has no power. That's the whole point. Individuals have no power. You can fool yourself into thinking that extra 20k a year you managed to get is power.

You guys do your own thing and I'll do mine. We'll see who comes out on top with the better job. The power that I have is the ability to up and leave and go somewhere else that offers me a better deal. And I will absolutely use my power of leaving if a group every tries to force me to join a union.

No you won't. You can get bored at lunch and just not come back if you want.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#234

Give us creative freedom and ownership of our IP. When you claim all of our thoughts on and off the clock, you encourage us to avoid creatively-fulfilling ventures, burn out, and leave for greener pastures.

> Give us creative freedom and ownership of our IP. you can't be serious. why would a company even exist if all the work it paid for would be owned by someone else? i mean sure, you can live in that world, it's just nobody would pay for anything to happen.

A business's returns are based on products, customers, relationships. Specific proprietary knowledge may be a part of that, but it's quite often a very small piece. The more so for companies which open source core (or all) infrastructure.

Not releasing core tools can itself be a major impediment. Several years ago, a Google architect, Yonatan Zunger, noted half-in-irony that he'd settled on a hiring decision heuristic: "No".

That is: the answer to whether or not to hire anyone, was to not hire them. Again, somewhat in jest.

But also partially serious: Google has highly complex systems, operates very much on an NIH mindset, and has significant risks for any level of failure (though they've also engineered some impressive systems against many of those causes of failure).

I thought, and wrote, at the time that this was actually a major concern for me over the future viability of the company. If Google literally cannot find qualified talent, or figure out how to make the talent it does find qualified, then it cannot continue. Even accepting the hah-hah-only-serious nature of the comment, it's troubling.

Much of this problem can be avoided by opening up more of your core infrastructure, as it allows potential talent to both gain experience with your tools, and to demonstrate that experience, most particularly to you, which would then be of interest in an employment context.

Some additional context comes by way of a YouTube engineer I'd spoken with some years before that, who was commenting (this in the mid-2000s) how Google's technology was really old. That is, Google had settled on a software stack in the mid-to-late 1990s, and has (or had) to a large extent sealed itself off from the world since. As a consequence, Google's tools were diverging (in Google's interests) from those of the rest of the world.

(I don't know how that situation's played out since, though the comment sticks with me.)

Back to the question of IP: claiming rights to both what it is you teach your workforce, and what they come up with on their own (as I've seen written into employment contracts) ... betrays a staggering level of short-termism to my mind. It works out for the current King of the Hill, for so long as they're KotH, but tends to end rather poorly. Not only for those companies, but their customers, who are ultimately saddled with old, stale, one-off software for which the potential employment pools are small and generally less than stellar.

(Look up the recent HN discussion of the MUMPS programming language and the firm which continues to utilise it, largely in medical software, based out of Minneapolis. Cautionary tale. And yes, I'd heard of MUMPS decades before, and run then.)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13859961

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#235
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you're attacking someone simply for stating that they think "Silicon Valley (especially SF) is all for diversity...as long as you think exactly like they do." From left field, you're bringing up and arguing against "having the opinion that a class of people do not deserve the same rights as others". And declaring that you know what EduardoBautista "wants": "no one to call you out for espousing terrible views. You…

> How you come to these conclusions based on that one statement Because that one statement is from Stormfront.

Simply for the sake of meaningful discourse, I'd like to believe there's more to this thought. But you offer little.

1. Is there proof you have of this? Or is your statement just one of "This is something I think /they/ would say."?

2. More importantly: If a statement comes from the mouth of someone you feel is unsavory, does that make the statement invalid? Is everyone who then utters that statement unsavory, and so on? Do you think you can come to that conclusion? Particularly with EduardoBautista's thought: do you think you could come to that conclusion?

Attempting to associate EduardoBautista with Stormfront (with a comment like yours) would be considered a damning accusation to many, though such tactics have become painfully commonplace. That is not what you intend, is it?

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#236
"What are the common wages of labour, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower the wages of labour.

"It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorizes, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work; but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, a merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year without employment. In the long run the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate.

"We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate. To violate this combination is everywhere a most unpopular action, and a sort of reproach to a master among his neighbours and equals. We seldom, indeed, hear of this combination, because it is the usual, and one may say, the natural state of things, which nobody ever hears of. Masters, too, sometimes enter into particular combinations to sink the wages of labour even below this rate. These are always conducted with the utmost silence and secrecy, till the moment of execution, and when the workmen yield, as they sometimes do, without resistance, though severely felt by them, they are never heard of by other people. Such combinations, however, are frequently resisted by a contrary defensive combination of the workmen; who sometimes too, without any provocation of this kind, combine of their own accord to raise the price of their labour. Their usual pretences are, sometimes the high price of provisions; sometimes the great profit which their masters make by their work. But whether their combinations be offensive or defensive, they are always abundantly heard of. In order to bring the point to a speedy decision, they have always recourse to the loudest clamour, and sometimes to the most shocking violence and outrage. They are desperate, and act with the folly and extravagance of desperate men, who must either starve, or frighten their masters into an immediate compliance with their demands. The masters upon these occasions are just as clamorous upon the other side, and never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combinations of servants, labourers, and journeymen. The workmen, accordingly, very seldom derive any advantage from the violence of those tumultuous combinations, which, partly from the interposition of the civil magistrate, partly from the necessity superior steadiness of the masters, partly from the necessity which the greater part of the workmen are under of submitting for the sake of present subsistence, generally end in nothing, but the punishment or ruin of the ringleaders."

-- Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, 1776. Book I, Chapter VIII, "On the Wages of Labour".

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_...

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main objection to unions is that, once they're in a company, employees lose the right to negotiate their own compensation. I want to be able to skip my union dues and deal directly with the company. OR I want to be able to make a union of my own, especially for a functional or values-based subset of coworkers, and have us negotiate separately. This is not just a tech-unions-related complaint, this is a critique of…

> My main objection to unions is that, once they're in a company, employees lose the right to negotiate their own compensation So don't have the union do that. Have the union worry about coming down on places that fire members for refusing to work 60 hours a week, want you to train your replacement, force shitty unpaid oncall schedules, etc...

> So don't have the union do that

Unfortunately, it's an all-or-nothing deal. The NLRA is a very rigid law, and once a union has been sanctioned as the exclusive representative of a bargaining unit, they have the authority to do that.

It's next to impossible to either decertify or deauthorize a union once it forms, so you not only have to trust the current leadership, but all future leadership that may get elected, to focus only on the things you list and not focus on negotiating your compensation for you.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You guys do your own thing and I'll do mine. We'll see who comes out on top with the better job. The power that I have is the ability to up and leave and go somewhere else that offers me a better deal. And I will absolutely use my power of leaving if a group every tries to force me to join a union.

No you won't. You can get bored at lunch and just not come back if you want.

Things have worked out quite well for me.

The same cannot be said for those trying to force everyone in tech to join a union. Every month I see some hacker new medium post about it, and they never go anywhere.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation considers anything but "open shop" to be "forced unionism" and lists 28 states as free from that scourge.[1] No exclusive contracts, no agency fees. I think you're conflating open shops and right-to-work laws, but besides that, the point is that there is no free rider problem even in states with right-to-work laws, because the union can structure their contracts w…

NRTW's definition of "right to work" appears to be the common definition. It's also the common definition of "open shop". Minority unions can bargain only for their members -- but as far as I can tell, members can't commit to be bound by the outcome, which undermines the union's bargaining power. Even then, the prevailing legal opinion seems to be that they can't negotiate terms that structurally favor members over n…

> NRTW's definition of "right to work" appears to be the common definition. It's also the common definition of "open shop".

Not quite, because you can have an open shop in a state that doesn't have a right-to-work law. Right to work laws only ensure that workers have the ability to dissociate from the union without losing their employment.

> Minority unions can bargain only for their members -- but as far as I can tell, members can't commit to be bound by the outcome, which undermines the union's bargaining power.

Alternative way of phrasing that: Only unions which represent the majority have the ability to compel all members to accept whatever terms they negotiate.

> Majority unions have to represent all workers in a bargaining unit

They have to represent them for things like grievances, yes, but that doesn't mean that they can't pick and choose which subgroups they advocate for in negotiations over others.

That's literally what negotiating is - you have to figure out what you're willing to give up in order to get what you value more. And a union with a heterogeneous membership will inevitably have to decide which group of members to prioritize over others.

The purpose of right-to-work laws is to limit their ability to marginalize minority members, because those minority members always have a second option that doesn't involve unemployment.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between what's best for the group and what's best for individual members of the group. This conflict comes up over and over again, as it arises from straightforward principles from game theory. If everyone bargains collectively, overall compensation goes up as companies have much worse alternatives to negotiated agreement. However, these companies are generally very willing to bribe people into b…

I don't know. Picket lines are a really specific situation. I don't think companies are motivated in normal times to pay more to non-union workers. What exactly would they be paying for? You are right about the general tension between group and individual rewards for choices. It goes beyond unions as you mention. I do think some unions do OK in this regard- actors and musicians are not held back on individual income…

>It goes beyond unions as you mention.

Yeah, and it gets really interesting when you look at examples from evolutionary biology, too. There's a pretty common population dynamic that goes on between "punish non-cooperation with some version of tit-for-tat" and "always cooperate because others will punish defectors" and "exploit others because there's enough non-cooperators for this to work as a strategy".

In normal times, companies don't pay more to non-union workers - but the company pays the same, and non-union workers get the benefits that union workers fought for, and the non-union folks don't have to pay union dues and the like. There's a very real reason why unions work to make themselves non-optional, and why businesses favor laws that enshrine a right to not pay union dues.

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