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WikiLeaks Releases Trove of Alleged C.I.A. Hacking Documents

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Re: WikiLeaks Releases Trove of Alleged C.I.A. Hacking Documents

#231
post #7

This headline is extremely dangerous. The phone itself was owned. No encryption was harmed by capturing the keystrokes and audio before it reaches the application. NYTimes should be ashamed of themselves for basically lying about the nature of the hacks.

> No encryption was harmed by capturing the keystrokes and audio before it reaches the application. Exactly, and some people including me thought about this possibility years ago. The most secure system in the universe can still be hacked very easily by a malicious closed driver because device drivers have the highest access level to the underlying hardware. Every information being produced: (virtual) keyboard writin…

yup, its a chicken/egg scenario.

Re: WikiLeaks Releases Trove of Alleged C.I.A. Hacking Documents

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here is my take as an information lawyer and (slightly-higher than script-kiddy-level) web developer as a "(slightly-higher than script-kiddy-level) web developer" I'm going to guess that he doesn't actually know very much about AOSP, the Linux kernel, or indeed GNU/Linux security in general. So his emphatic statement "Compare the security of Android - which we now know to be 'owned' by the US Government" is pretty…

> I'm going to guess that he doesn't actually know very much about AOSP, the Linux kernel, or indeed GNU/Linux security in general. I know a fair amount for a 'layperson', which you can (probably rightly) argue means I am unqualified for comment in these circles, and you are right that I am including too much speculation. I absolutely, inarguably overstepped. My bad. However, with regard to Android being owned - this…

You should be careful about making bold proclamations about the supposed insecurity of Linux or AOSP. Especially under the guise of tech-savvy lawyer. And just because you made a browser extension that doesn't trust Chrome's security model doesn't mean you're also qualified to confirm the complete and utter "owning" of the Linux kernel on ~5 year old Android devices.

Re: WikiLeaks Releases Trove of Alleged C.I.A. Hacking Documents

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm going to guess that he doesn't actually know very much about AOSP, the Linux kernel, or indeed GNU/Linux security in general. I know a fair amount for a 'layperson', which you can (probably rightly) argue means I am unqualified for comment in these circles, and you are right that I am including too much speculation. I absolutely, inarguably overstepped. My bad. However, with regard to Android being owned - this…

You should be careful about making bold proclamations about the supposed insecurity of Linux or AOSP. Especially under the guise of tech-savvy lawyer. And just because you made a browser extension that doesn't trust Chrome's security model doesn't mean you're also qualified to confirm the complete and utter "owning" of the Linux kernel on ~5 year old Android devices.

Your point is well taken. Consider me suitably chastened.

Back to the question at hand - there seems to be extremely strong evidence that android - and iOS, apparently - are compromised pretty thoroughly. https://betanews.com/2017/03/07/wikileaks-vault-7-cia-year-z...

If this is not the case, then what is your conclusion? Because the claim that is being made far and wide, right now, is that android, ios and samsung smart TVs appear to be fundamentally compromised.

Re: WikiLeaks Releases Trove of Alleged C.I.A. Hacking Documents

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is all bunk tho since the big vulnerability here is that you're delivering the encryption routines via javascript in a global browser space So what about mailvelope?

Nm, I understand your point, and yes, no contest. The extension is being broken up and will communicate with the environment on the tab with sent messages, rather than just injecting the whole content script. I hear your point loud and clear.

You're not taking your own advice from two comments up :)

Re: WikiLeaks Releases Trove of Alleged C.I.A. Hacking Documents

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not point to the actual ancient exploits from circa 2011-2013 for Android versions below 5 and Chrome versions below 40? https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/cms/page_11629096.html

Thanks for the link. So then is the assertion that the relevant hacks are all for older versions of Android? How does that comport with the current batch of hacks?

All of the hacks are for older versions of Android and iOS. Specifically Android version 4.x and iOS version 9.x.

"Apple says most vulnerabilities in Wikileaks docs are already patched"

https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/07/apple-says-most-vulnerabil...

Re: WikiLeaks Releases Trove of Alleged C.I.A. Hacking Documents

#236
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But Play Services is effectively a part of the OS (from Google's perspective). As you say, in both cases (iOS and Play Services) it's a commercial closed-source bundle. shrug I don't personally spend time worrying about that, given that Google and Apple's code is probably better reviewed than some random open source app, but some people like to nerd out about such things. As you say, the FBI was eventually able…

Totally agree with you. I like my Nexus 5x a lot. I figure that usually it's the highest levels of government who are actually willing to pay a sum like that though. I doubt the local PD is willing to dedicate 1mil to cracking a phone if you get arrested for possession of a controlled substance or something. And it's kinda an unspoken goal of mine to, ya know, not end up on a CIA watch list. Now I know some of the co…

> And it's kinda an unspoken goal of mine to, ya know, not end up on a CIA watch list.

First rule of not being on the watch list is not to admit you don't want to be on the watch list.

What, do you have something to hide? Huh?

Re: WikiLeaks Releases Trove of Alleged C.I.A. Hacking Documents

#237
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Same. And I would probably have posted a longer and less confrontational explanation of why you're (mostly) wrong if I weren't tired after a long day of work. ;) The whole "why not encrypt local resources" thing is an odd red herring that a lot of (even fairly experienced) people trip over. There was a massive public furor over Chrome's chrome://settings/passwords (i.e. lack of a master password) design choice a…

This argument is almost exactly what I was on about. I'd love to see some summary of it and why they came down where they did.

Sorry. I went to bed. I'll frame the basic argument for Chrome and then show how it expands to other systems.

Chrome: =======

Someone who can access chrome://settings/password is presumed to have physical access to your powered-on, unlocked machine. E.g. someone who sits at your keyboard when you get up for coffee.

And that person can just as easily install a Chrome extension that sniffs your passwords or steal your raw auth cookies directly from the developer console. (He could even paste some JS into the developer console to intercept the password as-typed by autocomplete!)

(Note that an attacker with access to a locked/powered-off machine or with no local access is not part of the threat model, since they are presumed to be addressed by FDE, screen locks, remote access controls, etc.)

Now, the major counterargument is essentially that a lot of unsophisticated attackers (like spouses) may not know about cookie jars or JavaScript, but they know about "view saved passwords." I find this argument somewhat reasonable, but from some vantage point it's security theater--not knowing about ctrl+j isn't a strong security guarantee, after all. So I view the Chrome team's stance as being a very principled one, namely: don't invest in "security" features where a bypass would not be a bug.

(In some literature this is referred to as a "security boundary", typically defined as "a control which, if bypassed, has a bug." Note the contrast with, for example, spam filters and antivirus, which may be sometimes bypassed while working as intended.)

More generally: ===============

I think what was lacking in this conversation in general was a firmly defined threat model and a firmly defined security boundary. My contention about per-application encryption is that it doesn't represent a security boundary because any attacker who can execute code that can read application-ACL'ed data on disk is by definition either running code at a higher security level (e.g. has root) or is running code at the same security level (and can thus inject code into the browser process itself).

This conversation gets a little more complex when talking about mobile OSes that have per-application sandboxing, but the same observation effectively holds.

Anyway, I'm tired of typing, but hopefully that makes a bit of sense. Let me know if I'm being confusing.

Re: WikiLeaks Releases Trove of Alleged C.I.A. Hacking Documents

#238
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nm, I understand your point, and yes, no contest. The extension is being broken up and will communicate with the environment on the tab with sent messages, rather than just injecting the whole content script. I hear your point loud and clear.

You're not taking your own advice from two comments up :)

Regarding professionals? I hear you - loud and clear.

I want you to know, very sincerely, I appreciate your feedback over the past two days.

Some lessons (re-)learned:

* Security is a conclusion, not an assertion - it is improper to present a system as secure without evidence. * I am not, nor will I ever be, qualified to provide a conclusion regarding security. * The language on the homepage needs to be clear in this regard without being 'cute.' * If I ever post on HN regarding security, either use evidentiary sources to back my points on provide code.

Thanks for the reality check.

Re: WikiLeaks Releases Trove of Alleged C.I.A. Hacking Documents

#239
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's currently marked as beta all over the site, for exactly these reasons.

it is more prominently marked as "secure, end-to-end encrypted communications" - which it certainly is not. it is also being marketed as such by you here

You can check again - I have changed the language. That was improper and thanks for the feedback.

Re: WikiLeaks Releases Trove of Alleged C.I.A. Hacking Documents

#240
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument is almost exactly what I was on about. I'd love to see some summary of it and why they came down where they did.

Sorry. I went to bed. I'll frame the basic argument for Chrome and then show how it expands to other systems. Chrome: ======= Someone who can access chrome://settings/password is presumed to have physical access to your powered-on, unlocked machine. E.g. someone who sits at your keyboard when you get up for coffee. And that person can just as easily install a Chrome extension that sniffs your passwords or steal your…

So, tell me what I am misunderstanding here:

* On OSX, OS passwords are stored in the keychain. * However, Chrome stores passwords in a local SQLite database https://www.howtogeek.com/70146/how-secure-are-your-saved-ch..., which, on osx, I believe is in your Application Support Folder ("ChromeDB") * The user, who is not root, has read/write access to the ChromeDB * Is it not the case, then, that any script that has user-level permissions can access the Chrome passwords? Because Chrome is not available through the app store, it does not store passwords on the OSX keychain, which, again, correct me if I'm mistaken, requires higher permissions to read? So that, for instance, a malicious script that only had user-level permissions could not access the contents of databases encrypted with credentials stored in the keychain?

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