Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#231

Post by valuearb » Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 5:54 PM UTC

program_whiz wrote: post #160

projectramo wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said immigration may not cost jobs. And you responded with poverty is bad. If that was a response to what I said, I don't see how.

Your point was that the impact of using non-American labor was essentially nil in every study ever done. My point was that replacing a $25 / hr union factory worker who has healthcare and PTO, with a $2/hr factory worker in a "suicide sweatshop" is not nil. You said that in general, the replacement workers are just economic spenders too, and I provided a counter example (don't seem like these Chinese workers are like…

If Walmart replaces it's american made bikes with chinese bikes, and saves every family in america that shops there $10 on their bike purchases, that savings gets spent elsewhere in america.

The dollars that go to china get either spent or reinvested here. And Chinese purchases of iPhones has exploded over the last few years.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#232

Post by valuearb » Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 5:56 PM UTC

throwawaydbfif wrote: post #24

zzleeper wrote: post #12

> Their lobbyists claim there is a “talent shortage” among Americans and thus that the industry needs more of such work visas. This is patently false There is no way SV would have grown to what it is now without foreign talent. So the shortage has been real for the last 30+ years. Not sure why this point is still controversial. > most Silicon Valley firms sponsor their H-1B workers, who hold a temporary visa, for U.S…

The endless talent shortage is a farce. Every tech company I've worked at rejects well over 90% of their applicants and has an interview process that would be considered insane in almost any other field. I would say the opposite is true based solely on hiring practices. Look at Google for example, who hire around 1/5000 people that apply. The shortage is artificially maintained because it works in companies favor. It…

I've run interviews for a consulting company. Most all of the best applications were from H1B holders.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#233

Post by dhruvrrp » Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 5:56 PM UTC

dxhdr wrote: post #209

dhruvrrp wrote: post #137

The discussion about H1Bs is getting dominated by SV. The brunt of the changes are gonna affect other industries, for example, someone i know is currently doing a masters in biotech at a really good research university, and she is really scared about the 130k lower limit for H1B applicants. According to her, even postdocs in her field don't make that much! If the new H1B system passes as is, then its gonna cause a ma…

> The discussion about H1Bs is getting dominated by SV SV dominates the H1Bs: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Category.asp...

But it doesn't. The problem is Indian outsourcing sweatshops. Why does everyone else have to suffer because of them?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcin...

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#234

Post by unprepare » Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 5:57 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #32

at-fates-hands wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> There is no way SV would have grown to what it is now without foreign talent. So the shortage has been real for the last 30+ years. Not sure why this point is still controversial. Mainly because we have over 7 million people unemployed. The controversy is why are we bringing in so many foreign workers when we have so many people out of work here? The argument basically comes down to what would we need to do to get…

Realistically, most of our 7 million unemployed are unemployed by choice. They are unwilling to do many jobs they perceive as being "below their station" and they are unwilling to move to places where the jobs are. We need to import a better working class to pay for our leisure class since pushing our leisure class into work is considered socially unacceptable. Here's a great first person account of this: http://www.…

>unemployed by choice

>they are unwilling to move to places where the jobs are.

How exactly would an unemployed person move? security deposit/down payment, moving costs, etc all cost real money, and without an income, I'm not sure how you would expect someone to move across the country.

Humans are on average risk averse - and certainly no one would advise someone to move out to california on their credit card, in hopes of immediately finding a well paying job.

Its not like someone who has been unemployed for two years is so attractive that theyd be getting offers with relocation included thrown at them.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#235

Post by joshbert » Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 5:59 PM UTC

coulix wrote: post #68

sulam wrote: post #46

Speaking as someone who has hired H1-B's in the past, there really do seem to be two tiers. There's the companies/organizations that are truly abusing the system and then there are the traditional tech companies who are happy to hire anyone qualified, no matter where they are from, and pay and promote them the same as other employees. They also sponsor green cards. Competition between these employers has gotten to th…

+1

There's an arrow next to the username that will help you express this sentiment without the need to comment.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#236

Post by valuearb » Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 6:00 PM UTC

throwawaydbfif wrote: post #36

yummyfajitas wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every tech company I've worked at rejects well over 90% of their applicants and has an interview process that would be considered insane in almost any other field. Joel Spolsky explains why this does not imply what you think it implies. http://www.inc.com/magazine/20070501/column-guest.html tl;dr; Imagine 1 low quality developer who applies to 9 places and gets rejected. There's also 1 high quality developer who appl…

Inc.com is a really bad source for such information... As if they would be expected to be neutral in such a situation. If this was true you would see it across professions and at every level of position, yet it's something fairly unique to software development.

You aren't asking Inc for a recommendation, if you did their bias would be an issue. Thinking clearly means focusing on facts of the argument, not Joel's job or the site's business.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#237

Post by valuearb » Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 6:01 PM UTC

Amezarak wrote: post #220

yummyfajitas wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your study is claiming that software engineer compensation rose no more rapidly than the population at as a whole (they also saw a 5% increase), then something is deeply wrong with your study. Note that "Computer and math occupations" is a broad catch-all term which includes all sorts of professions, such as: Computer User Support Specialist: Provide technical assistance to computer users. Answer questions or reso…

Here in flyover country, companies are paying new-grad software engineers 30-38k.

Here in dirt poor arizona new grad software engineers make $70K+

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#238

Post by valuearb » Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 6:03 PM UTC

ch4s3 wrote: post #78

zzleeper wrote: post #12

> Their lobbyists claim there is a “talent shortage” among Americans and thus that the industry needs more of such work visas. This is patently false There is no way SV would have grown to what it is now without foreign talent. So the shortage has been real for the last 30+ years. Not sure why this point is still controversial. > most Silicon Valley firms sponsor their H-1B workers, who hold a temporary visa, for U.S…

> There is no way SV would have grown to what it is now without foreign talent. So the shortage has been real for the last 30+ years I don't think you can prove this point, because you're arguing a counterfactual without proving the base claim that foreign talent was in fact necessary or that similar development wouldn't have otherwise happened. You're also confusing what is meant be a labour shortage, which isn't ab…

I've been at a startup where a few key hires (one an h1B) led to 140 jobs.

And H1B holders can work anywhere. Why do we want them to work overseas for our competitors?

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#239

Post by douche » Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 6:03 PM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #202

orcdork wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lottery based skilled visa means that there's many more skilled people on the other side, and less spots for them. Unless you have a way of quantifying extremely small differences in skill (and keeping the process balanced), I don't see how you feel a lottery is unfair.

Why don't we just allow more of them to become Americans?

This. We can happily allow millions of illegal immigrants in to work as seasonal farm labor, or import unskilled refugees from war-torn, ideologically questionable areas, that become a drain on social services, but we throw up barriers for well-educated people who will immediately start contributing, if we'd let them. It's nuts.

Re: Trump Is Right: Silicon Valley Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#240

Post by throwawaydbfif » Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 6:03 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #232

throwawaydbfif wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The endless talent shortage is a farce. Every tech company I've worked at rejects well over 90% of their applicants and has an interview process that would be considered insane in almost any other field. I would say the opposite is true based solely on hiring practices. Look at Google for example, who hire around 1/5000 people that apply. The shortage is artificially maintained because it works in companies favor. It…

I've run interviews for a consulting company. Most all of the best applications were from H1B holders.

Sorry to say this but you've probably got pretty strong selection bias.

At least from my experience (I used to be a consultant) consulting jobs mostly attract people that can't get a job elsewhere. They generally include low pay, long hours, and a lot of client interaction.

It's no surprise to me that the nation's biggest software consultancies are largely considered the worst places to work as a software developer.

H1B's know to apply at these jobs because they have a much better chance of getting them. They have a better chance of getting them because these same companies are generally the ones abusing the system to hire software developers below market rates.