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I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

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Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That's the entire point, enforcing religious tests is absurd." Are Christians actually exempt, or are you referring to the "prioritization of people who are religiously persecuted", who happen to include Christians in those Muslim countries? "Yes, shocking enough, due process is necessary. And perhaps we don't grant visas and green cards to people who are considered dangerous then?" But that seems to be the goal? I…

> prioritization of people who are religiously persecuted", who happen to include Christians in those Muslim countries? Christians are hardly persecuted in Muslim countries. > But that seems to be the goal? I don't understand you? A blanket ban is not due process. These people were legally allowed to immigrate, and a ban (thereby leaving them off of American soil) is not due process.

"Christians are hardly persecuted in Muslim countries."

You mean, for example, a Christian family living on IS territory would be just fine? That seems very unlikely to me. But perhaps I have fallen victim to fearmongering about the IS.

"A blanket ban is not due process."

I am not saying it was handled well, but it seems an important distinction to note that the ban is temporary. The assumption seems to be that the checks previously in place were insufficient.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#232

Addressing the concerns of the Trump supporters is the only way forward. Why are they angry? Silicon Valley - one of the richest sectors of society, is up in arms because the disenfranchised "have nots" are expressing their anger about being "have nots" by just tearing the whole damn thing down. The "have nots" say - through Trump and his actions - "OK, you got everything, we got nothing, here's the payback". The hav…

Have nots? Trump voters were richer than Clinton voters.

on average is not actually.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#233
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During his campaign he has paid for numerous polls to check the scenario. As far as I know, he won every one of those, which was not the case for Clinton. I believe that it is actually highly plausible, as in my opinion the whole election was spinned to one question - "change or no change". It was damn hard for Clinton to prove she's for change, which would not be the case with Sanders.

Given that (I think) every poll up to November had Clinton handily winning the presidency, I think we can probably take those polls with a grain of salt when it comes to "proof".

Bernie did use those polls throughout his campaign to paint himself as better oponent to Trump, so I do not believe those were without merit. His main argument then was that he wins with Trump every time while Clinton does not. We can of course discuss merit of those polls, but as I have written earlier, it fits with my view of that election and the reasons Donald Trump became POTUS. You are free to disagree of course, this is my opinion, not a fact.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#234
post #68

Nice post, though there are some caveats. As a Pole (as some of you know, we do have some issues here too, though many would disagree) I feel at least a bit competent to give you a bit of advice, so you can get out of it better than we did. 1. Donald Trump is not your enemy, nor a problem. He is a manifestation of the problem, which is current state of your society and problems you have. Do not believe that you can j…

>You have people working full-time who cannot afford the living. You have one of the most expensive and unreachable for many healthcare systems. You do have degressive taxing systems. You have much smaller middle class that you are used too. These are all very, very real problems. The problem is, they're not solved by voting Republican, but a lot of people simply think of themselves as Republicans. So there are a lot…

There is a fallacy there - you believe, that if voting Republican does not improve situation, but can likely be detrimental, its better to stick with alternative. The caveat is that this is the reasoning of people functioning reasonably well in current society. If you put yourself in shoes of those who are definitely not happy now, for them the choice is quite different - status quo, which is unacceptable, or change, which may be good or bad. They will choose change most of the time, because they don't perceive how it can come out worse for them. Or, at the very least, change will make those higher in the ladder in trouble too, which can be actually attractive as "bringing justice", even if it does not improve situation for anybody.

People tend to prefer being miserable with everybody else than on their own.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#235

Addressing the concerns of the Trump supporters is the only way forward. Why are they angry? Silicon Valley - one of the richest sectors of society, is up in arms because the disenfranchised "have nots" are expressing their anger about being "have nots" by just tearing the whole damn thing down. The "have nots" say - through Trump and his actions - "OK, you got everything, we got nothing, here's the payback". The hav…

Have nots? Trump voters were richer than Clinton voters.

This is "true" in that "you can pull up some statistics that 'prove' this", but it misses the major issues entirely.

Yes, technically Trump voters have a slightly higher income than some Clinton voters if you pull some census data and overlay that to voter data. But income alone is not a great way to measure wealth. Clinton voters earning Clinton voters Trump voters in $40k households here live almost exclusively in old suburban sprawl, with poor quality housing (they "make too much" to qualify for the benefits previously mentioned). These areas have little to no educational or business resources, no diversity of residents, and no usable public transit. Many have sick relatives or have children, driving their costs up. Much of the benefits of cities are entirely outside of their reach -- and will remain that way their entire life. After accounting for higher living expenses, these folks have less discretionary income.

In this way, Trump voters have higher income, but have lower wealth, than lower-income/higher-wealth Clinton voters. There is no dollar amount put on any of those mentioned benefits, it does not show up on an census income report, folks will never get to see this from their coastal office highrise. But that is a very real and valuable form of wealth, that some have but many don't.

---

Someone will condescendingly summarize those stats as "Trump voters just feel poorer than Clinton ones", as if they are lying for fun or something. But there is an actual fact-based argument for Trump voters being real-world poorer than Clinton ones, despite having on-paper slightly higher average incomes.

Similarly, if these folks complain about jobs, someone will argue "the US-BLS shows unemployment is actually down, so your wrong". Ignoring how wage growth has been mostly flat, despite inflation. Ignoring the huge 50%+ cost-of-living increases in Housing, Education, and Medical expenses (even in places like Michigan). Ignoring how many people are significantly under-employed. Ignoring the massive over-inflation of job/education requirements for even just entry-level positions. Ignoring that most of these jobs are being created in high-COL markets that none of these people will ever be able to afford to participate in.

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I live in Michigan. I am not a Trump voter in any way, but I am surrounded by them and live in an environment that tends to create them. People aren't complaining for fun. This isn't entertainment. They are frustrated to hell and back. And while I don't agree with their vote to "trash the system", and I can at least understand why they feel the way they do, and why they feel this is the best-or-only way to lessen the pain.

If we want to solve this, fundamentally we have to take these problems seriously. Right now, I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing "fact checkers" trying to "prove" these problems are fake, or solved, or getting better, and telling people "your wrong" for mentioning them. Shouting census data at people who are struggling will not win you any support, and will not fix any of the real (factually-real) problems many are struggling with.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not examples of things Trump would do, they're examples of things neither of the major parties give you a choice over. Nobody knows what Trump will do. Make America Great Again could mean anything. Compare "Hope and Change" -- Obama was the first attempt at this when he defeated Clinton. Change didn't happen so people chose an even more radical option. It isn't that voting for the protest candidate is especia…

We now have a very good idea what Trump will do - literally what he promised to do, which was all about autarky, closing the country off and bringing industry back to the US, and of course to be the most important man in the world (he was on the cover of time magazine 15 times you know). He has been very clear and consistent in his words and actions. Americans first and I think Trump first amongst Americans in a nati…

The more important part of this is: what if Trump fails like Obama did despite fulfilling more than half of the mandate.

Suppose Trump bans all Muslim countries from entering US and somehow (dubious) it does not affect American businesses negatively while improving local hiring. What if that is not enough? (it likely isn't)

Whom will the electorate choose next? A full on warmonger perhaps?

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#237
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I have a lot of respect for Iran. It's a beautiful country with great people. But when I turn on the news and I see "Death to America" being chanted or Iranians trample or burn the American flag the rust is broken. Not to mention the 1983 Beirut Barracks Bombing which killed hundreds of Americans and was committed by a group directly funded by the Iranian gov't. The situation feels very strange. Empty…

Holding individuals accountable for for what the government of their country did three decades ago is a slippery slope.

That cuts both ways.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#238
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Both parties are the same" is such a tired meme considering what has happened the past 8 days. Do you think President Clinton would be defunding planned parenthood? Planning a repeal of a healthcare law without a replacement, making 20 million people lose their health insurance immediately? Appoint a brain surgeon to HUD? Do you think Democrats would set up this muslim ban? Not a 6-month refugee ban, but a ban from…

It isn't that both parties are the same on all issues, it's that there are important issues that no viable candidate would actually address. Do you think President Clinton would end NSA mass surveillance? Reduce copyright terms? Meaningfully reform Wall St? Meaningfully reform the tax code or social spending? Republicans won't either. That's the problem. You get enough people frustrated enough and they vote for whoev…

None of these problems you state are why Trump seems to have won actually - which seems to symptomize the problem in the US. To people like me on the outside, it appears that a majority of the population is losing hope of bettering their life... and they voted for the person who promised to change the system that made them lose hope.

We had a chief minister in India once like this... darling of the educated classes, highly progressive, deploying technology in eGovernance, attracting Microsoft and Google to open campuses in his state. He lost by a landslide in the next election because during his term, the monsoons failed and farmers fell deep into debt and started committing suicide while he was deploying his middle class focused efforts.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That's the entire point, enforcing religious tests is absurd." Are Christians actually exempt, or are you referring to the "prioritization of people who are religiously persecuted", who happen to include Christians in those Muslim countries? "Yes, shocking enough, due process is necessary. And perhaps we don't grant visas and green cards to people who are considered dangerous then?" But that seems to be the goal? I…

> prioritization of people who are religiously persecuted", who happen to include Christians in those Muslim countries? Christians are hardly persecuted in Muslim countries. > But that seems to be the goal? I don't understand you? A blanket ban is not due process. These people were legally allowed to immigrate, and a ban (thereby leaving them off of American soil) is not due process.

> Christians are hardly persecuted in Muslim countries.

According to the 2016 annual report from USCIRF, 4 of the 7 banned countries (Iraq, Syria, Iran and Sudan) are "TIER 1 CPCS RECOMMENDED BY USCIRF" indicating that religious minorities, including Christians, are being persecuted in a "... systematic, ongoing and egregious" manner[1].

It's interesting to note that 11 of the 17 countries listed in the Tier 1 CPCs are predominantly Muslim.

[1]: http://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/USCIRF%202016%20An...

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#240
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran is not a war-torn country. And this doesn't just ban immigrants, it bans green-card and visa holders too.

So just like Obama did back in 2011 for 6 months and nobody batted an eyelid?

This claim is untrue.[0]

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/01/...

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