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Just how smart is an octopus?

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Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#231

Post by azakai »

virmundi wrote: post #113
chc wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The words "truth" and "god" are not synonyms. I don't know if there is a god, but I feel quite certain there are things that are true.

Why? Let me limit that a bit: why are there ethical/moral truths? There are probably statistical truths. Such as generally don't kill people. However, every society has loopholes or outs for such a law. What leads you to believe that there is a universal truth especially in light of the fact that the universe does little to actively preserve life, and doesn't seem to evolve too many creates that could even care.

By one point of view, our ethics evolved - as in, were created by biological evolution. And their form isn't arbitrary, just like evolution isn't - it can take many forms, but what it generates must work in order to survive, and it must work with what it has.

In particular, there are only so many ethical systems that can work for a social species like ours.

If that is true, then our ethics predate humanity and are not arbitrary, or at least their core isn't. In some sense, then, our ethics are true and universal.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#232

Post by m0ngr31 »

junto wrote: post #133
jnbiche wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.

So by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal? Is that true?

Huge misconception about pigs. Pigs are very clean and if given a choice will never go to the bathroom anywhere close to where they sleep or eat.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#233

Post by majewsky »

gcr wrote: post #60
Nexxxeh wrote: post #9

I love how completely alien they are compared to us. The sort of decentralized nature of their nervous system compared to our path of evolution. (I'm no marine/evolutionary biologist so I'm probably butchering the terminology...) I loved reading the two pieces Sy Montgomery wrote that are in Orion Magazine. https://orionmagazine.org/article/deep-intellect/ And the follow-up: https://orionmagazine.org/2011/11/intervie…

If you like reading about minds that are fundamentally different from our own, you might also enjoy the science fiction novel "Blindsight" by Peter Watts. Exploring the space of possible minds in the universe is a fundamental theme of that work.

Also, the recent movie "Arrival" (or the short story it's based on).

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#234

Post by andrei_says_ »

How smart inevitably limits the question by applying a human measure to it.

What I am more interested in, is to know how it is smart, not how much. How does it perceive? How does it connect and process information? How does it interract?

Is there a way to approach this subject besides shape shifting into an octopus?

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#235

Post by majewsky »

uhtred wrote: post #204
enugu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from cognitive skills, an important factor is the capacity of suffering. So even dumb animals might be able to feel intense pain. In humans, while forms of suffering like loneliness, depression can be bad, pure physical pain can itself a terrible thing. For instance severe torture for 10 minutes can be worse than months of depression. Now even if cognitive aspects are diminished in animals, the physical senses…

Anyone who thinks animals do not suffer is an idiot. They have nervous system, therefore they feel pain, just like us. They also suffer emotional pain, not just physical. Kill a pig in front of another pig and he/she is going to be terrified.

> They have nervous system, therefore they feel pain, just like us.

That's two non-sequiturs in one sentence. I'm pretty sure there exist lifeforms that have a nervous system without an analog of pain. (Hint: If you want to defend your argument, start by defining "pain".) And it's quite egregious to just assume that there exist only one kind and quality of pain in all living animals. (Again, start by asking yourself how to rigorously define "pain".)

> They also suffer emotional pain, not just physical. Kill a pig in front of another pig and he/she is going to be terrified.

If at all, that's just an argument not to kill pigs in front of other pigs (unless the emotional pain is a desired outcome).

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#236

Post by majewsky »

virmundi wrote: post #81
cicero wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christianity (at least Catholicism) has an animal ethic that is not man-made, but comes from divine revelation. Genesis says that man is given the responsibility to care for creation, and while since the time of the flood we have permission to eat animals, the general (at least Catholic) interpretation is that doesn't mean we can be cruel to animals. In other words, if we have a reasonable need to kill an animal for…

I agree. In the comment above I played it from two world views. The one you espouse is the same (or similar enough) as the Christian view I mentioned. The agnostic view is there since I think, or at least assume, the majority of people on HN are agnostic. From such a view point, there is no tenable, logical reason that one should not eat meat or, in this specific case, a creature of intelligence. Such an argument com…

> From [an agnostic] view point, there is no tenable, logical reason that one should not eat meat

Sure there is. Mass production of meat is one of the major fuels for global warming, so if our fitness function optimizes for survival of our species, we better go veggie.

inb4 Prisoner's Dilemma

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#237

Post by wishinghand »

tzs wrote: post #84
bduerst wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went diving with a retired marine biologist who said, half-jokingly, that if octopodes had ever formed the same tribal culture as primates that we would have been competing with them for dominance at some point.

Fortunately for us, they have two biological strikes against developing that kind of culture. 1. They have short lifespans, limiting how much knowledge and wisdom an individual can acquire over its lifetime. 2. Reproduction is fatal. Males dies a few months after mating. Females spend all their time after the eggs are laid guarding them, and neglect to eat. They die of starvation around the time the eggs hatch. The o…

I assume evolution would eventually take its course by selectively choosing the ocotopodes whose mothers lived long enough to pass some sort of knowledge down. The longer and longer mothers live, perhaps the more those types of octopodes get selected because they outcompete orphans.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#238

Post by elastic_church »

tigershark wrote: post #213
sdfjkl wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're lucky all he wanted was to eat a flounder and then return peacefully to his tank instead of going full Dawn of the Planet of the Octopuses on you.

Day of the tentacle is more appropriate in this case.

thanks for clearing that up

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#240

Post by elastic_church »

virmundi wrote: post #30
overcast wrote: post #2

Way to make me feel worse about eating them.

Why worry? They'd eat you. Realize that all animal ethics are entirely manmade and foreign to the background of the Universe's amorality. Edit: Really down voting because you don't agree? The comment was on topic, provided a view, and contributed to the conversation in some way. If you want to down vote, please be responsible enough to say why.

> Really down voting because you don't agree?

High expectations for someone thats been here for almost 10 years

But I should correct you, ALL ethics are manmade, although I'm sure you are aware because anybody that would say that has accepted nihilism and the futility of moral relativity.

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