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Developers’ side projects

joelonsoftware.com

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231–240 of 411 posts

Re: Developers’ side projects

#231

Post by wfunction »

ImTalking wrote: post #213
wfunction wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And when I left the company that bought me out to start another project, I made sure that I had a release to say that I'm indemnified against any future legal actions and I started the project the day after I got that release. How do you force a company to do something like that? What's in it for them to agree, especially when you're leaving?

I had come to them with a couple of ideas during my employment which they had rejected but I said I may pursue. In addition, they had purchased my company so as with most buyouts there was the usual cultural and operational issues between myself and upper management. So I framed it that it would be good for both parties to release each other from any future claims and we could both go on our merry ways.

Ahh, so I assume not something a typical employee could do. Thanks!

Re: Developers’ side projects

#232

Post by morgante »

charlesism wrote: post #229
morgante wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I'm not in the habit of accepting anything anyone says at face value. It doesn't mean he's running some long-running conspiracy, it's simply a reminder that his perspective comes from a particular position.

> I'm not in the habit of accepting anything anyone says at face value. Well, that is generally a wise approach. The only reason I'm defending him is that I mentally pegged him a long time ago as an unusually decent guy. To be fair, I only know him from his writings and public speaking, but that has been consistently developer-minded.

I have met him and he is generally a very decent guy, but like I said his perspective is informed by specific experiences.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#233

Post by lerpa »

skybrian wrote: post #35
nostromo wrote: post #31

This is a good article, but the "let them eat cake"-iness of the last paragraph is pretty chilling. > the only way to gain independence is to be independent. Being an employee of a high tech company whose product is intellectual means that you have decided that you want to sell your intellectual output, and maybe that’s OK, and maybe it’s not, but it’s a free choice. I was hoping for a closing argument about how thou…

Yes, it seems weird that he doesn't say how to fix this: Get written agreement from your employer that your side project is your own. Some employers even have a standard process for doing this. They might say no, but then you know not to put any more work into it.

That may be a temporary bodge solution to this, but the final solution is to eradicate the kind of legal implications that being an employee entails, aside from the only fact that it is no different than you selling a service to the employer during the contracted working hours. An employee is nothing more than a consultant that, most of the time, works on location, and should legally be treated like that.

Obviously that wouldn't stop you from signing your work away in a contract, but at least removes the whole "it's a different kind of transaction" legal mentality from it.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#234

Post by scaredthrowaway »

tptacek wrote: post #164
scaredthrowaway wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but if you do the invention off the clock, after you started? And you decide to disclose? No one will ever give you a yes or no answer. Never. It's like raising VC, or invading Russia. They will just put everything off until tomorrow. Forever. I worked at That Place In The Valley that is not in Cupertino or Menlo Park. I tried to get "I own the IP" authorization for some side project that didn't matter to the b…

If they don't sign off, either don't work on the side project or change jobs. Plowing ahead without clearing up the IP feels empowering, but what you've really done is concede virtually all the power to your employer, and in a way that allows them to retain it even after you leave the job.

As opposed to when I leave having started the project there? I have never gotten anything remotely close to a real answer of what I'm supposed to do once I commit the original sin of thinking while I have a salary. It's not like the moment after I quit every line of code I write is mine free and clear. They own the foundation unless otherwise resolved. They already have all the power.

I didn't plow ahead, I stopped once I thought it might have potential. I really only tried for the few months, after that they kept asking me permission to close the request and I kept telling them no. (I was pretty pissed).

Re: Developers’ side projects

#235

Post by ed_blackburn »

It seems completely alien to me that a third party could claim ownership of something I've built because I'm using a craft / skill that they pay me to use too. I live in the U.K. And work as a contractor. I've seen odd looking IP clauses in contracts but have amended them or felt confident I can sign them irrespective.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#236

Post by pmiller2 »

ed_blackburn wrote: post #235

It seems completely alien to me that a third party could claim ownership of something I've built because I'm using a craft / skill that they pay me to use too. I live in the U.K. And work as a contractor. I've seen odd looking IP clauses in contracts but have amended them or felt confident I can sign them irrespective.

What are some examples of clauses that looked odd that you signed anyway?

Re: Developers’ side projects

#237

Post by [deleted] »

ed_blackburn wrote: post #235

It seems completely alien to me that a third party could claim ownership of something I've built because I'm using a craft / skill that they pay me to use too. I live in the U.K. And work as a contractor. I've seen odd looking IP clauses in contracts but have amended them or felt confident I can sign them irrespective.

[deleted]

Re: Developers’ side projects

#238

Post by dimino »

johnwheeler wrote: post #174
ImTalking wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't quite understand Joel's point. Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable. And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? I had exactly that thing. I was being bought-out and a small client decided (against the contract that they had signed) that the changes we had made to our mortgage broker commissio…

> Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable A company with resources could sue you for a number of bogus reasons if they wanted to be dicks.

Yeah but law isn't magic, you can take away their options by planning ahead.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#239

Post by tdeck »

I just started at Google this week, and this is something I'm terrified of. Side projects are vital to my personal identity and development, and knowing that I own them is vital to my motivation. The thought that my employer might try to claim ownership of work I've done all on my own fills me with apprehension and I still haven't figured out what I will do about it.

My old employer was one I felt that I could trust to not abuse its power.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#240

Post by pmiller2 »

dimino wrote: post #238
johnwheeler wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable A company with resources could sue you for a number of bogus reasons if they wanted to be dicks.

Yeah but law isn't magic, you can take away their options by planning ahead.

You may be technically correct (the best kind of correct, of course), but companies do love their options. And for you to be able to take them away, you need to have some kind of negotiation leverage. If you're Geoffrey Hinton, you've got what you need; if you're Joe Schmoe, chances are you don't.
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