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Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

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Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#231

Post by megous »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #96
hkt wrote: post #91

Just another example of the extreme moral ambiguity of the West. We regularly ignore our own standards around giving people a fair trial when it suits the executive of the day or when some stupid condition applies ("race" in this case, geography and citizenship for eg Guantanamo bay). Not to mention "strategic" alliances with dictators down the years that have usually proven to be murderous. It is sad to think that t…

> It is sad to think that the myth of our moral superiority has never been anything else. No, it's real, just not as real as we like to think. Between "imprison people of Japanese ancestry for the rest of the war, then free them" and "imprison people of Jewish ancestry, then kill them", there is a real moral difference. They are both wrong, but they are not equal.

It might have been different if America had not 110000 people to deal with, but 5000000. It might have found its own final solution for the Japanese. Nazis only got to the final solution quite a bit into the war. There were various plans over the previous years to move undesirable people elsewhere, like Madagascar, etc.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#232

Post by mikeash »

ebiester wrote: post #131
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the Nazi regime. To the Communist regimes. To Turkey (Armenian genocide). To Rwanda. To Serbia. But not to everyone, I'll agree.

Is the Armenian genocide worse than the Trail of Tears, for example? (I'm not trying to discredit or diminish the Armenian genocide here, mind you, but rather point out we still have someone who committed genocide by the same terms on American money.)

I think most Americans will, at this point, agree that the Trail of Tears was terrible. The National Park Service has an official historic trail covering the route, with many exhibits describing the terrible suffering.

Turkey, on the other hand, still tries to pretend that the Armenian Genocide did not happen, even prosecuting people who say it did.

We are by no means perfect, but I think nations which are able to acknowledge and learn from the mistakes of their past have a leg up on those that try to pretend everything was great.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#233

Post by burkaman »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #217
burkaman wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have generally heard that isn't true, and it does seem hard to believe the government could hide such an enormous undertaking. People were disappearing, thousands employed to build and staff camps, lots of international coverage, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocau... These days there would be satellite pictures of camps, cell phone videos of most of the internment process, reporters a…

It's not that hard to imagine, especially in sparsely populated corners of the world. Take this article: http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-xinjiang-procedure/article... Truth? Fiction? If true, would anyone risk precious trade with China over it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation_in_China... Maybe they've killed tens of thousands of people, maybe not? Doesn't seem to inspire many Western journalists…

That's not a very good comparison. 60,000 people being executed over 6 years is very different from rounding up 3 million people, alive, in some camps. China also has no free press and a heavily censored internet.

Building huge camps and housing millions of people is simply impossible to do in secret.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#234

Post by CWuestefeld »

andars wrote: post #207
CWuestefeld wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone whose American ancestors fought in a war to free your ancestors, I think you're painting with far too broad a brush.

That wasn't the purpose of the war. Here's Lincoln, 1862: "I would save the Union. … If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it."

That only tells us Lincoln's stated values. He doesn't get to dictate the motives of the entire country. I don't think you can legitimately claim that there wasn't a real ideological abolitionist movement, and that many people fought for it.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#235

Post by petulanta »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #96
hkt wrote: post #91

Just another example of the extreme moral ambiguity of the West. We regularly ignore our own standards around giving people a fair trial when it suits the executive of the day or when some stupid condition applies ("race" in this case, geography and citizenship for eg Guantanamo bay). Not to mention "strategic" alliances with dictators down the years that have usually proven to be murderous. It is sad to think that t…

> It is sad to think that the myth of our moral superiority has never been anything else. No, it's real, just not as real as we like to think. Between "imprison people of Japanese ancestry for the rest of the war, then free them" and "imprison people of Jewish ancestry, then kill them", there is a real moral difference. They are both wrong, but they are not equal.

So just because we didn't cause the Holocaust, we are morally superior? That's a pretty low bar and a ridiculous argument, but it says a lot about the American mindset.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#236

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #218
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour was a strategic preëmptive strike, because they knew the US would come after their empire at some point. I don't think Japanese imperialism can really be defended. Of course, Japanese imperialism was very much inspired by European imperialism in… well, everything. But that doesn't make it right either, merely just as bad.

Japanese imperialism was an attempt to get out from under the boot of US imperialism. The US showed up, forced their nation open to western powers,and spent the next 70 years intimately engaged in all their important decisions. Japanese conduct during the 30s was atrocious. They tried playing by the moral code in earlier wars, the US and other Western powers repeatedly reneged on deals and forced Japan to return any…

I don't think that's quite fair. It's true that after the arrival of the US, Japan was apparently fed up and changed its approach. But does that make invading and subjugating their neighbours justifiable?

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#237

Post by geezer »

Domenic_S wrote: post #107
DarkKomunalec wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange how enforcing borders began to be seen as controversial. The explanation that makes the most sense to me is, some people see free movement across borders as a human right, while others view a country as their home, and so should have the right to decide who to let in.

I am surprised by the same thing. We have a legal process for crossing those borders, and if you circumvent that process you are a criminal. How is that controversial? Separately, if you believe the process is bad, or borders should be open, or whatever -- by all means, fight for that using the frameworks we have.

Did you ever violate speed limit and not pay a fine?

I am guessing you did many times. If you had paid the fine, you'll be too broke to own a device to post this comment.

It also means you circumvented the process and you are a criminal. It takes one to know one.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#238

Post by Mindless2112 »

nbz118 wrote: post #216
Nadya wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japanese, German, and Italians were all interned under the Alien Enemies Act.

True but they were overwhelmingly Japanese. It appears about 11K Germans and 2K Italians were interned compared to over 110K Japanese, despite there being significantly more Germans and Italians living in the US. Sources: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Italian_American...

It's not terribly surprising when you consider that Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, whereas Germany and Italy did considerably less damage on US soil.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#239

Post by mikeash »

bpodgursky wrote: post #153
djsumdog wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the US et. al. cut off fuel and oil trade. They don't teach you that part in school. The saddest thing about WWII is that the people who started the war, by funding it, were never brought up on charges at Nuremberg. Prescott Bush and Standard Oil made millions off selling fuel to both sides. IBM made the punch-card based catalogue service for the Nazis. Henry Ford's company made tank treads for both allied and…

Um, you must also have had a pretty spotty education, because you missed the part where the fuel embargo was to stop the ongoing genocide the Japanese were conducting against China. Don't act like the world would have been A- ok if we had just been ok selling gas to power genocides.

It's worth noting that China lost 15-20 million people in the war, which is the second highest death toll of all the involved countries, behind the USSR. And the war in China gets very little attention. If you ask people when WWII started, they'll usually say December 7th 1941 (if they're being US-centric) or September 1 1939 (if they remember Poland). Yet the Japanese had been rampaging around China since the early 30s, with very little done to stop them until they made the mistake of provoking a great power a decade later.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#240

Post by lostlogin »

chrishacken wrote: post #157
djsumdog wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the US et. al. cut off fuel and oil trade. They don't teach you that part in school. The saddest thing about WWII is that the people who started the war, by funding it, were never brought up on charges at Nuremberg. Prescott Bush and Standard Oil made millions off selling fuel to both sides. IBM made the punch-card based catalogue service for the Nazis. Henry Ford's company made tank treads for both allied and…

> The saddest thing about WWII is that the people who started the war, by funding it, were never brought up on charges at Nuremberg. Prescott Bush and Standard Oil made millions off selling fuel to both sides. IBM made the punch-card based catalogue service for the Nazis. Henry Ford's company made tank treads for both allied and Nazi tanks and even built the rails leading to Auschwitz. The difference is these all too…

The weapons being sold are used for atrocities fairly regularly. Pretending this isn't happening is what we do best.
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