My Google Internship • Hacker News Board

Re: My Google Internship

#231

Post by wsh91 » Fri, Dec 02, 2016, 10:51 PM UTC

ozy123 wrote: post #230

wsh91 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a genderqueer engineer at Google, I'm really glad to work with supportive cis colleagues. I'm sorry that you take such a negative view, but at least for me, as someone who has rarely felt included in tech, it's a tremendous relief to be here. If going to great measures to make sure people who break the mold feel comfortable constitutes "social extremism", well, I'm glad we're extreme.

What does it mean to be 'included in tech' ?

It means that software (the product, not the community) tends to offer a binary choice for gender and a lack of gender-neutral forms of address (I go by Mx.). It means that the conversations around gender in tech tend to reflexively focus on "women" with "men" as their opposite, both essentializing gender and reinforcing a fictional dichotomy. It means being able to come to work dressed the way I want to dress without someone complaining that my leggings are revealing when half the office is in Lululemon (yes, that actually happened). It means that I can ask other people to respect my pronouns and feel supported by management and colleagues rather than feel afraid to speak up.

In other words, it means a hell of a lot.

Re: My Google Internship

#232

Post by ozy123 » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 12:22 AM UTC

wsh91 wrote: post #231

ozy123 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean to be 'included in tech' ?

It means that software (the product, not the community) tends to offer a binary choice for gender and a lack of gender-neutral forms of address (I go by Mx.). It means that the conversations around gender in tech tend to reflexively focus on "women" with "men" as their opposite, both essentializing gender and reinforcing a fictional dichotomy. It means being able to come to work dressed the way I want to dress withou…

Your tight leggings create a bulge of your genitalia, societal norms don't yet accommodate the visual enhancing of the penis or vagina such that they are prominently displayed. Unfortunately the penis/scrotum are much more bulgey than the vagina.

But by trying to pretend that it's ok for the 'other half' but not you, you're failing to advance your argument - which is that people should get comfortable with your package being prominently displayed. Because to you it is the equivalent of an ass/breasts/pecs being enhanced in some way?

Look I'm all for drinking kosher soda. It doesn't affect me. Having to adopt my language to accommodate every minority group (of which there is an infinite number) is just too heavy a cognitive load with zero benefit to me. It benefits my friends who ask me but I refuse and ask them to instead accommodate my not wanting to. And I think that's fair?

Re: My Google Internship

#233

Post by euyyn » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 12:49 AM UTC

ozy123 wrote: post #232

wsh91 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means that software (the product, not the community) tends to offer a binary choice for gender and a lack of gender-neutral forms of address (I go by Mx.). It means that the conversations around gender in tech tend to reflexively focus on "women" with "men" as their opposite, both essentializing gender and reinforcing a fictional dichotomy. It means being able to come to work dressed the way I want to dress withou…

Your tight leggings create a bulge of your genitalia, societal norms don't yet accommodate the visual enhancing of the penis or vagina such that they are prominently displayed. Unfortunately the penis/scrotum are much more bulgey than the vagina. But by trying to pretend that it's ok for the 'other half' but not you, you're failing to advance your argument - which is that people should get comfortable with your packa…

Not sure what's your point. wsh91 is explaining how much it means to him/her that at Google we're generally happy to personally do those kinds of "accommodations" (for lack of a better word).

I couldn't care less about any team-mate of mine coming dressed the way they wanted. And I'm not surrounded by "every minority group", so if someone told me tomorrow he rather I use "he"/"she"/whatever when referring to them in public, they'll be the first one and I'll have no problem at all. I might forget some times, but that's fine too. Pronouns are also more of a personal thing than a minority group thing: I don't change my language when I talk to black people, or to white Americans, but if a person asks me, sure, why would I give a damn about language if that makes them feel better.

Re: My Google Internship

#234

Post by drewrv » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 12:49 AM UTC

ozy123 wrote: post #232

wsh91 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means that software (the product, not the community) tends to offer a binary choice for gender and a lack of gender-neutral forms of address (I go by Mx.). It means that the conversations around gender in tech tend to reflexively focus on "women" with "men" as their opposite, both essentializing gender and reinforcing a fictional dichotomy. It means being able to come to work dressed the way I want to dress withou…

Your tight leggings create a bulge of your genitalia, societal norms don't yet accommodate the visual enhancing of the penis or vagina such that they are prominently displayed. Unfortunately the penis/scrotum are much more bulgey than the vagina. But by trying to pretend that it's ok for the 'other half' but not you, you're failing to advance your argument - which is that people should get comfortable with your packa…

Is it really that difficult to address people how they wish to be addressed?

If someone said to you, "Please call me Matt" do you respond with "But your birth certificate says Matthew! How am I supposed to handle this cognitive load? What's the benefit for me, Matthew?"

Re: My Google Internship

#235

Post by euyyn » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 12:57 AM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #187

espadrine wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously there is a strong habit of having signs on toilets. But I am unsure why. Sitting toilets are the exact same thing for both genders, there's no reason not to have a bin next to them anyway… Most homes don't have gendered toilets. Why is that so common at work? Why do you think the separation was made?

Three big causes: First, home bathrooms are reliably single-user. Some people are deeply uncomfortable with the idea of sharing a bathroom with people of another gender (though exactly which people they would not want to share with is a complicated question). Interestingly, this seems to be a bigger deal in the US, where our stalls are shoddy and easy to see into. Second, cleanliness. Mostly, home bathrooms stay clea…

> Urinals, hygiene/contraceptive vending, and (controversially) changing tables are the big ones.

I think I've seen baby-changing tables at all if not most male restrooms at Google.

Urinals... I've never seen another person's trunk when using urinals. I'd get upset if you tried to look at mine no matter your sex or gender. And I'd get as upset as a woman if you showed it like an exhibicionist, even though I have one too. So I think in practice, at Google, urinals wouldn't ultimately matter.

Hygiene and contraceptive vending I can see how people might want to be more private about.

Re: My Google Internship

#236

Post by euyyn » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 1:04 AM UTC

edblarney wrote: post #169

Shank wrote: post #65

I love reading accounts like this. As someone who had an internship in high school, I'm always happy to hear what other people's experiences were going into and out of the process. I think my immediate reaction is that Google creates an environment that simply doesn't exist at most other places. I interned at two companies in the defense industry. You could argue that our experiences were different because of securit…

One one side: yes. And BTW - this has nothing to do with defense industry, it's just 99% of business is like this. Business could do a lot more to make a more fun environment. On the other hand ... Google is a 'de-facto' monopoly, and they print money. They are super, super rich, and literally have billions more than they know what to do with. So it's easy to justify a lot of extra expenses. And these things can be e…

> Google is a 'de-facto' monopoly, and they print money. They are super, super rich, and literally have billions more than they know what to do with.

> So it's easy to justify a lot of extra expenses

I see how it can look like that from outside, but from within Google is pretty serious about expenses and costs. All the perks and benefits are an investment to acquire and retain the employees, and to allow them to be as productive as possible.

Remember as an example that Google stock doesn't give dividends: all profits are reinvested in the projects.

Re: My Google Internship

#237

Post by euyyn » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 1:15 AM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #182

TooGhosty wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be able to give some examples of job titles for positions that you would consider "less-pure"?

Sure - Technical Solutions Engineer, Customer Solutions Enigneer, Web Solutions Engineer, Application Engineer, Developer Relations Engineer are a few off of the top of my head.

From a SWE that's worked a lot with DevRel: these guys do the Lord's work; I have them in a pedestal. Cloud without DevRel would be like a pharma company researching new drugs, but without doctors that know how to diagnose patients and choose and explain the appropriate combination of treatments.

And they're also the ones that get to appear in most dev tutorial videos!

Re: My Google Internship

#238

Post by ozy123 » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 1:17 AM UTC

drewrv wrote: post #234

ozy123 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your tight leggings create a bulge of your genitalia, societal norms don't yet accommodate the visual enhancing of the penis or vagina such that they are prominently displayed. Unfortunately the penis/scrotum are much more bulgey than the vagina. But by trying to pretend that it's ok for the 'other half' but not you, you're failing to advance your argument - which is that people should get comfortable with your packa…

Is it really that difficult to address people how they wish to be addressed? If someone said to you, "Please call me Matt" do you respond with "But your birth certificate says Matthew! How am I supposed to handle this cognitive load? What's the benefit for me, Matthew?"

"Matt is coming with us. He said he'd be at four. Jemima is also coming they said they'd be here at five."

Matt is coming at five? No Jemima is coming at five. Matt is coming at four. Also Sarah is coming with her partner Zoe. Ze said ze would be here at 4 also zey're getting a ride with Matt.

Umm. Ok.

Not to mention that now when I talk about women, I have to also consider every other gender non binary person as requested by OP. He doesn't want it to be essentialized and pragmatically to be inclusive one has to therefore moderate all language relating to gender.

That is a significant cognitive load and I wish people would stop pretending it's simple. I live around and have friends who are trans/binary non gender people and it's hard work keeping up.

Re: My Google Internship

#239

Post by euyyn » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 1:23 AM UTC

titanix2 wrote: post #180

gmurphy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the same thing once, but applied anyway on a whim. Have now been at Google for 11 years. It can't hurt to try.

It can hurt in my experience. I've been interviewed by Google for position once because they contact me on LinkedIn; I didn't think this site was actually useful before that. I had the classic code writing phone screening with a question I figured the answer but I had to reschedule it because of bad wireless connection (university library, home was not even my wifi). The next time my setting was better but the interv…

I see what you're saying. If it helps, remember that impostor syndrome is a real thing, and that many that work at Google failed their first interview too. I think the hiring process if biased towards avoiding false positives at all cost, which means it has many false negatives.

Re: My Google Internship

#240

Post by mining » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 1:29 AM UTC

andrewflnr wrote: post #97

mining wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, 2 or more time interns (only in the US, at the moment? Wasn't the case in Sydney, but was for a friend in Seattle) can get a FTE role if they have really good feedback from t heir internships.

If so, it's not publicized internally. I interned at Google this summer too, and I didn't hear anything about how I could bypass conversion interviews. Maybe it's a case-by-case discretion thing.

I /think/ (with only anecdata) that this only comes up when you try to convert.