Live data from Hacker News

Global warming: The state of the climate in 2016

economist.com

231–240 of 242 posts

Re: Global warming: The state of the climate in 2016

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do. At any rate, I do in the case of world leaders and the actions of states over the last decades. Or at any rate I'd like to believe I do. Virtually everything has been consistent with preparing for the worst case climate disaster. You might think that if we knew it was unavoidable it might comprise protecting populations in cities and so-forth by building huge coastal works, or moving populations, or other such…

> It's a fairly crap hypothesis That's the only even remotely true thing in this entire comment. HN would really benefit without all the frantic paranoia and cinematic apocalypse-mongering that has unfortunately become the default position around here. Keep it to Alex Jones, please.

[deleted]

Re: Global warming: The state of the climate in 2016

#232
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does nerve gas harm trees?

This comment, along with many others posted from this account, violate the guidelines for being unsubstantive and flamewar (nerve agent, rather) style. We ban accounts that continue to post like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[deleted]

Re: Global warming: The state of the climate in 2016

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not nuke metropolitan areas while you're at it? Most of the population is in the coastal cities anyway, who cares about New York, Shanghai or Mumbai. Quick fix. Or force serialization for > 60% of the world population. I mean sure, there are "solutions" but there is ethics to consider too …

For a start, the cities you list contain many valuable people. Places doing lots of slash-and-burn farming, not so much. My original comment was a bit facetious, but if it is a civilization-ending threat (and I'm not saying it is), better to start the killing sooner when we can control who dies than collapse the whole thing and lose thousands of years of scientific and cultural progress.

By the way, we already do this! We let millions starve to death in squalor already. Why? For the sake of civilization. Or do you think it'd be smart to ship them all over here? Amazing how timid we are about weighing life against life in a controlled fashion when this is already happening every day. We can't even have a little hypothetical chat on the Internet about it.

Re: Global warming: The state of the climate in 2016

#235
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LA? Still terrible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution_in_the_United_St... The air is still killing people there, even if it doesn't feel hard to breathe. The same goes for the climate, I guess, if you don't feel it, it must be okay. But it's not.

You have no idea how choking the air was in the 70's and 80's. They still had Stage 3 smog alerts in the early seventies where you were not supposed to go outdoors. Our treatment of the earth has improved and it will continue to improve with technology. All the (incomplete) computer models since the 90's predicting runaway warming due to human inputs to the system have not been borne out, and every year they aren't,…

You think the IPCC is not real science?

Why would it be a bummer that something in the "human extinction" category was taken on the "let's make sure it really doesn't happen" side instead of the "oh, those hippies are screaming since the 80s, because they took the scary predictions of some models seriously, and we're still here, so fuck them, and also fuck the 95+% of vastly more advanced and sophisticated models of today, because air quality is improving in urban centers".

It's great to see things improving, but CO2 has not much to do with smog. And that's actually a problem, because people who take the lazy approach to global climate models like you - let's call these people the Peter Wilsons (because an article of his is the [second] thing on Google if you search for co2 and smog) - will insist on having clean air and on doing nothing with regards to CO2.

Re: Global warming: The state of the climate in 2016

#236
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LA? Still terrible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution_in_the_United_St... The air is still killing people there, even if it doesn't feel hard to breathe. The same goes for the climate, I guess, if you don't feel it, it must be okay. But it's not.

Right. Who are you going to believe, Wikipedia or your lying eyes? I'm guessing you aren't old enough to remember how awful the state of the environment was in the United States back in the '70s. It's like night and day to compare then and now.

As I've replyed to the sibling comment, CO2 has not much to do with air quality, and that's actually a problem, because if it'd be linked to local air pollution, we'd have already insisted on less CO2 output long ago.

EdSharkey replied that the dire days are over. Yeah, in air pollution, great, applause, bravo, but not in climate things, like ocean acidification, storms and hurricanes and so on.

Re: Global warming: The state of the climate in 2016

#237
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course not. But the math is pretty simple. More and bigger waves, more and bigger storms on the coasts. The sea level will rise slowly, but surely. It will take 100+ years, but it'll rise by at least 10 meters, of course if we don't do something against it. And it's not impossible to build dikes and levees, but they'd look like huge hills on the shore. Not so bad, we have plenty of time to move a lot of dirt, but…

> Of course not. Ok. So the original commenter's idea of Trump having some sinister scheme to leave the Canadian border un-walled so Americans can flee en masse as the mainland is destroyed by global warming, is absurd. That's all I was asking.

I merely pointed out to a parent comment, that things still can (and are likely to) get worse, even if he (she?) can't see it presently, and that might be a reason why "global warming aware" hippies are screaming.

The Canadian border wall part is completely irrelevant, and yes, absurd.

Re: Global warming: The state of the climate in 2016

#238
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea how choking the air was in the 70's and 80's. They still had Stage 3 smog alerts in the early seventies where you were not supposed to go outdoors. Our treatment of the earth has improved and it will continue to improve with technology. All the (incomplete) computer models since the 90's predicting runaway warming due to human inputs to the system have not been borne out, and every year they aren't,…

You think the IPCC is not real science? Why would it be a bummer that something in the "human extinction" category was taken on the "let's make sure it really doesn't happen" side instead of the "oh, those hippies are screaming since the 80s, because they took the scary predictions of some models seriously, and we're still here, so fuck them, and also fuck the 95+% of vastly more advanced and sophisticated models of…

So, you're admitting some of the computer climate models WERE flawed? Glad to hear some intellectual honesty.

I suspect I don't see the world as statically as you do. If we humans pump more CO2 in the atmosphere, I assume it doesn't necessarily accrete there year-over-year. Also, I don't assume that a rise in CO2 in the atmosphere from year to year means humans are to blame since there are volcanoes and rotting vegetation all over the place. And surface temperatures are bound to fluctuate mainly because the sun is not a constant energy source from year to year.

Do I think the IPCC is real science? I'm sure there is something like science and data gathering going on there. I will note that IPCC has "government" and "climate change" in the name, which is a dead giveaway that politics are a driver in any conclusions made by the panel.

You give them the benefit of the doubt, clearly. I say, "show me reproducible experimental results or there was no science." Reproducibility in this case requires the models to be accurately predicting future trends, which, to-date they have not been. And that brings me to ...

> Why would it be a bummer that something in the "human extinction" category was taken on the "let's make sure it really doesn't happen" side instead of the "oh, those hippies are screaming since the 80s, because they took the scary predictions of some models seriously, and we're still here, so fuck them, and also fuck the 95+% of vastly more advanced and sophisticated models of today, because air quality is improving in urban centers".

Look, cussing isn't necessary. I want clean air and water. I have asthma, I know how bad pollution can be. I'm not a bad guy. I just don't appreciate being lied to and what you said there can be summed up as, "I know a lot of false claims were made on inaccurate models, but good things happened and I'm satisfied."

Here's the thing, I don't like being made to worry over unfounded claims. (And I get super grumpy when my kids are made to worry!) So, scale your message wayyyy back or you lose any credibility.

Heck, the "stop pollution" message is sufficient, and why not? There's a legit/obvious pollution problem worldwide, so you have moral superiority there. Planetary destruction is not imminent though (at least not due to man-made CO2 emissions) and you've got no leg to stand on there.

Re: Global warming: The state of the climate in 2016

#239
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think the IPCC is not real science? Why would it be a bummer that something in the "human extinction" category was taken on the "let's make sure it really doesn't happen" side instead of the "oh, those hippies are screaming since the 80s, because they took the scary predictions of some models seriously, and we're still here, so fuck them, and also fuck the 95+% of vastly more advanced and sophisticated models of…

So, you're admitting some of the computer climate models WERE flawed? Glad to hear some intellectual honesty. I suspect I don't see the world as statically as you do. If we humans pump more CO2 in the atmosphere, I assume it doesn't necessarily accrete there year-over-year. Also, I don't assume that a rise in CO2 in the atmosphere from year to year means humans are to blame since there are volcanoes and rotting veget…

People usually admit guilt, and I don't think I have anything to do with those models, as some of those are older than me. Of course they were flawed. Models are always imperfect, but the important things is, are they useful?

Well. Ultimately, we shall see the usefulness of these climate models, and those old models were useful to show some the extremes, huge swings, big effects. Solar cycles, big non-sea ice melts (Greenland, Antarctica), no reduction in emissions, a lot of CFC (used for refrigerators, you probably remember them).

Furthermore, it's kind of hard to experimentally test the crude models, as you'd need to copy the universe, and do this or that in a lot of copies. Those models were simple, but still full of statistics, so the chances are still chances, just there are hundreds of millions of people who don't want to put Earth on a roulette table.

Hm, I never considered my worldviews as static. What suggests that?

So, now those are concrete scientifically explorable questions.

First, sure, the CO2 content of the atmosphere is increasing a lot slower than we're adding it, so it goes somewhere. Vegetation, oceans, and some could escape to space, but it's basically zero. So from a CO2 standpoint, Earth is a closed system ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_escape#Dominant_at... ).

There are thousands of people working on determining the composition of the atmosphere in the past. We have very good data for about the last half million of so year. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_in_Earth's_atmo... ) And getting better and better estimates for the longer timescales (hundreds of millions of years).

The main point of this whole global climate change/warming/alarm/denial is that humans are very busy and we are doing something very fast. Big quick changes. We released so much CO2 and CH4 (methane) and other gases, that it is having an effect, much larger than whatever would happen to any natural cause. (Volcanoes release yearly less than a gigaton of CO2 (about 0.3 Gt per year) and we have good data for the last 50 years, and there was no significant increase in CO2 after big eruptions. So, they released a lot during the millions of years, but that largely went down into the sediments at the bottom of the oceans.)

The Sun has many cycles, the short 11-year sunspot cycle is not that interesting, it happened in the last century ~9 times, and nothing interesting happened (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles#Problems

So, all in all, we released more CO2 in the last 50 years than "nature played with" in the last 400k yearly, as in we released a half a teraton (500 Gt) in total and the yearly variation was 200 Gt. Each year we release ~35 Gt, that has to go somewhere or accumulate in the atmosphere. (And as you noted, not all of it is accreting, hence all this text and discussion.)

(Furthermore, the average temperature change we're talking about takes into account the seasonality from the Sun, so the trendline is statistically separated from the baseline.)

Well, I treat the IPCC as the aggregation of climate scientists. (Best data, best models, most rational interpretations, and so on.) They are internationally funded (there's a breakdown of contribution by country, it's chartered by the UN, but the world meteorological organisation pays its yearly budget), so far they are pretty cheap, as of 2014 they received about 138 M CHF (136 M USD at current exchange rate). But probably a review of their work could be crowdfunded pretty easily. (Though we'd have to discuss what is a good method of estimation and what isn't, what is a good way to model this or that and what isn't, but of course these points of concern should be listed, and .. there is a list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_IPCC_Fourth_A... ) After the IPCC's 4th report in 2009, there was a lot of scrutiny of their work, conflicts of interest and so on, and their process benefited from this, as the 5th report now uses better data, better sources, a more unified probability framework (so probability estimates are consistent with each other), and so on.

I believe that when thousands of scientists endorse a result, and spend time talking about it, spend energy explaining it, how it came to be, and why specific "counter" papers are flawed, then that result is okay.

The times are changing, I don't know what'll happen in the future after this mini-collapse of intelligent discourse, now that truth and English are basically arbitrary, now that Enlightenment values of clarity and rational attention to detail no longer matter, with the rise of the complex charlatans that are willingly or unwillingly put certain issues before scientific integrity. Now that more and more people are forced to make less and less optimal compromises with supporters of ideologies foreign to theirs.

But that's a bit too doomsaying and offtopic. Back to models.

The IPCC reports are based on technical models integrated into a bigger reporting framework. And those models were covered in a lot of papers, and the best models were chosen, and then computationally run. (See the Climate Model Intercomparison Project, also, "When using blended temperatures the observations lie well within the 90% range of RCP8.5 runs for the whole of the last decade" -- RCP8.5 is what IPCC used, and the blended things is about estimating air temperature (the models predict air temp) from sea temp (what satellites measure when they look at the sea) -- http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/95782/1/blend_paper.pdf )

That said, SCIENCE IS FUCKING SUCKS when it comes to presenting results. (Compare to "tech": https://areweideyet.com/ https://arewefastyet.com/ http://www.arewewebyet.org/ vs http://cmip-pcmdi.llnl.gov/cmip5/publications.html and https://cmip-publications.llnl.gov/search?type=project&optio... there's no one-liner. Yet the question is pretty easy "how accureate are models on some metric, and what does that mean".)

"I know a lot of false claims were made, [...]" .. I haven't said that. I know the models were simple, so crude, bad, inefficient, inaccurate are not surprising to me. Not to mention there was not enough computational capacity in the 90s.

My message is, logic is powerful, but that doesn't mean simple. It means we can say that there are more and more possibilities. Such that if someone is screaming more and more, it doesn't mean that they are just trying to scaremonger more, it might mean things are getting worse and worse. (That's how this subthread started.)

Re: Global warming: The state of the climate in 2016

#240
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you're admitting some of the computer climate models WERE flawed? Glad to hear some intellectual honesty. I suspect I don't see the world as statically as you do. If we humans pump more CO2 in the atmosphere, I assume it doesn't necessarily accrete there year-over-year. Also, I don't assume that a rise in CO2 in the atmosphere from year to year means humans are to blame since there are volcanoes and rotting veget…

People usually admit guilt, and I don't think I have anything to do with those models, as some of those are older than me. Of course they were flawed. Models are always imperfect, but the important things is, are they useful? Well. Ultimately, we shall see the usefulness of these climate models, and those old models were useful to show some the extremes, huge swings, big effects. Solar cycles, big non-sea ice melts (…

There is so much in your reply, I am gratified!

I can't possibly reply adequately, at least on this touchscreen phone. A few things:

- agree suncycles/sunspots follow a general pattern, but by no means precise nor energy predictable.

- I suspected static because of some of your conclusions, for example that earth as a closed system. It's not! Earth is slowly growing due to dust/meteor accretions, our orbit and spin are slowly changing, single random volcanic eruptions can throw more particulate matter into the upper atmosphere than all human activity in history affecting weather for years, random cosmic ray inputs, earth's fluctuating magnetic field strengths, sun spots, cloud formation, and on and on ... huge inputs that make the system incredibly dynamic.

You are right to say that louder/more urgent pleas for action don't necessarily mean there's an attempt to scaremonger. I just observe that it's tough for fear not to soak the rhetoric especially when the screamer is legitimately afraid.

We just need to be methodical about any substantive change we attempt, no more rush to judgement. Fear can lead to rash decision making that could make things worse. (Like that insane proposal a few years back to seed clouds on a massive scale in order to reflect more sunlight back into space.)

I continue to hold that, based on recent history, we can apply tech that is clean AND continues our economic and social growth. We can have our cake and eat it too!

Post reply on HN