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ZCash Will Be a Truly Anonymous Blockchain-Based Currency

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Re: ZCash Will Be a Truly Anonymous Blockchain-Based Currency

#231

Post by kbart »

tribby wrote: post #200
pero wrote: post #68

ZCash has a myriad of fundamental issues, chief among them: -ZCash is a US-based LLC, and given what is publicly known about the capabilities and past behavior of its intelligence apparatus I don't see how anyone can claim that such an organization can shepherd a 'truly anonymous blockchain', particularly one that is essentially a black box -ZCash's blockchain is a black box and requires you to not only trust them wi…

> ZCash is a US-based LLC, and given what is publicly known about the capabilities and past behavior of its intelligence apparatus [...] why does it matter where zcash is incorporated when the apparatus you're describing operates without regard for borders? zcash is the first effort at a cryptocurrency where I have immense respect and trust for its team right out of the gate. not sure where the FUD is coming from (al…

"why does it matter where zcash is incorporated when the apparatus you're describing operates without regard for borders?"

Yes, they can do intelligence ops and attacks in others countries, but can't issue a subpoena along with gag order. Attacks can be defended against, secret court orders - not. A decision to make this currency US based killed it before it was even born. That's sad, because technically ZCash looks quite interesting.

Re: ZCash Will Be a Truly Anonymous Blockchain-Based Currency

#232

Post by Freak_NL »

teekert wrote: post #83
Animats wrote: post #39

Another altcoin. This one has a 10% pre-mining cut for the founders: "Zcash's monetary base will be the same as Bitcoin's — 21 million Zcash currency units (ZEC, or ⓩ) will be mined over time. 10% of that reward will be distributed to the stakeholders in the Zcash Company — founders, investors, employees, and advisors. We call this the “Founders Reward”." Here's a list of the other 709 altcoins.[1] 373 of them are st…

Or it's like Gulden (NLG) [0] which went times 30 over the last months. Currently they are installing terminals in parts of the Netherlands, some in Taxis. Edit: This altcoin also seems to provide anonymity [1] [0] https://bittrex.com/Market/Index?MarketName=BTC-NLG [1] https://shadowproject.io/en

I'm Dutch, consider myself well-informed and well-read, but I've never heard of this project before. To be honest, it sounds like another cryptocoin pyramid scheme. On their website this altcoin is presented as an investment opportunity where the value of the coins you own increases with the number of users.

> The value of Gulden is determined by the demand for Gulden, as with gold or silver. The price can go up or down, but on average the value of Gulden goes up.

Sure. It will only go up. Just like all the other altcoins.

There is something that irks me about the name of this project. Gulden is the name of the Dutch currency used before the introduction of the Euro. At this point in time it has strong historical connotations (obviously), but it is also a symbol of adherents of the nationalistic political (far) right in the Netherlands. There are plenty of people from the lower socio-economic classes who fuelled by demagogues who believe we should revert to the Gulden (the actual currency, not this altcoin), close our borders, get out of the EU and once again prosper (even though we are already doing pretty well all things considered, and the EU benefits us on the whole, despite all its warts).

Choosing Gulden as a name for this project seems to explicitly place it at the heart of that particular bit of discontent. It also feels extremely pretentious to use the name of our historic currency that anyone over the age of twenty actually used. This I can grok from a commercial standpoint, but it leaves a nasty taste.

Re: ZCash Will Be a Truly Anonymous Blockchain-Based Currency

#233

Post by murbard2 »

bduerst wrote: post #228
tlrobinson wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another altcoin. The vast majority of "altcoins" are minor tweaks on Bitcoin and a couple others, they're not at all technically interesting, and I think it's an open secret they're pump-and-dump schemes. I don't know much about ZCash, but I know it's pretty unfair to dismiss it as "another altcoin". The people behind it are well respected [1][2] and it makes use of novel technology. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wik…

>I don't know much about ZCash ZCash has this ability to de-anonymize users through targeted blocks, and is a privately-held U.S.-based company that claims no liability for it's user's actions, meaning if subpoenaed they will [probably] turn over information. They're also privately cashing in on 20% of all transaction fees. Just because someone behind a project has credentials you respect doesn't mean we should ignor…

The privacy in ZCash is information theoretical. There just aren't enough bits in the transaction to identify you.

Re: ZCash Will Be a Truly Anonymous Blockchain-Based Currency

#234

Post by murbard2 »

echelon wrote: post #102
zekevermillion wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Premined" is not strictly accurate. 1/10 of the mining reward will eventually go toward a wallet controlled by the developers. The rate of the incentive payments starts out high and decreases over time. [1] This is different from a premine or instamine, where the devs begin life with a stash of protocol tokens, which they then have a strong inclination to dump on the market. Zcash 10% vig is an improvement over inst…

Did anyone fork or clone Ethereum to cut out the developer's premine? I'd be interested in an Ethereum-like, but only without the politics of forking based on protecting assets of the original developers.

You might be interested in Tezos (https://tezos.com, disclosure: I'm the lead dev), an upcoming distributed ledger and smart-contract platform with a decentralized governance model. It's not a clone of Ethereum, it's a fresh, from scratch implementation of a new protocol in pure OCaml (with the notable exception of a dependency on libsodium).

It's two year in the making and we're hoping to launch in March. Governance is necessary for the maintenance of the commons, but we don't think it should be in the hand of a foundation or a core development team.

Re: ZCash Will Be a Truly Anonymous Blockchain-Based Currency

#235

Post by tribby »

kbart wrote: post #231
tribby wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ZCash is a US-based LLC, and given what is publicly known about the capabilities and past behavior of its intelligence apparatus [...] why does it matter where zcash is incorporated when the apparatus you're describing operates without regard for borders? zcash is the first effort at a cryptocurrency where I have immense respect and trust for its team right out of the gate. not sure where the FUD is coming from (al…

"why does it matter where zcash is incorporated when the apparatus you're describing operates without regard for borders?" Yes, they can do intelligence ops and attacks in others countries, but can't issue a subpoena along with gag order. Attacks can be defended against, secret court orders - not. A decision to make this currency US based killed it before it was even born. That's sad, because technically ZCash looks…

Subpoena for what? There's no useful data to hand over, that's the entire point of zero knowledge.

Re: ZCash Will Be a Truly Anonymous Blockchain-Based Currency

#236

Post by kbart »

tribby wrote: post #235
kbart wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"why does it matter where zcash is incorporated when the apparatus you're describing operates without regard for borders?" Yes, they can do intelligence ops and attacks in others countries, but can't issue a subpoena along with gag order. Attacks can be defended against, secret court orders - not. A decision to make this currency US based killed it before it was even born. That's sad, because technically ZCash looks…

Subpoena for what? There's no useful data to hand over, that's the entire point of zero knowledge.

"Zero knowledge" is not an excuse, it's way too easy to "miss a bug" or few to leak an information. NSA is known to talk/force companies into adding backdoors to their products. Users can never be sure, so why risk it?

Re: ZCash Will Be a Truly Anonymous Blockchain-Based Currency

#237

Post by teekert »

Freak_NL wrote: post #232
teekert wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it's like Gulden (NLG) [0] which went times 30 over the last months. Currently they are installing terminals in parts of the Netherlands, some in Taxis. Edit: This altcoin also seems to provide anonymity [1] [0] https://bittrex.com/Market/Index?MarketName=BTC-NLG [1] https://shadowproject.io/en

I'm Dutch, consider myself well-informed and well-read, but I've never heard of this project before. To be honest, it sounds like another cryptocoin pyramid scheme. On their website this altcoin is presented as an investment opportunity where the value of the coins you own increases with the number of users. > The value of Gulden is determined by the demand for Gulden, as with gold or silver. The price can go up or d…

Apart from you associating wanting back the old Gulden and leaving the EU with being part of a lower-economic class, which it find extremely elitist, condescending and it annoys me greatly...

Gulden is used for actual value transfer that is easier than currently possible between banks, I can just transfer value to you by scanning your QR code. As such there is value in this method. Moreover I can not only transfer value to you but also to shop holders and taxi drivers around Groningen, this is due to human labor by the company behind Gulden. Gulden was trending in the iOS store a couple of days ago by the way, so many people have heard of it, even internationally.

The name YouTube also refers to old CRTs, perhaps indeed to evoke a certain feeling. Who cares.

Re: ZCash Will Be a Truly Anonymous Blockchain-Based Currency

#238

Post by tribby »

kbart wrote: post #236
tribby wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subpoena for what? There's no useful data to hand over, that's the entire point of zero knowledge.

"Zero knowledge" is not an excuse, it's way too easy to "miss a bug" or few to leak an information. NSA is known to talk/force companies into adding backdoors to their products. Users can never be sure, so why risk it?

It is too easy to miss a bug, which is why there was an audit.

I really don't understand the risk of US incorporation that you're talking about, or why it is better or worse than any other country without introducing other potentially even less desirable risks. Can you explain further?

More recently the US is known for failing to force companies to add back doors (see Apple/FBI). It's probablg worth noting Jospeh Bonneau (EFF) is on the board of Zcash. I just don't see the risk that you're seeing, sorry.

Re: ZCash Will Be a Truly Anonymous Blockchain-Based Currency

#240

Post by Freak_NL »

teekert wrote: post #237
Freak_NL wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Dutch, consider myself well-informed and well-read, but I've never heard of this project before. To be honest, it sounds like another cryptocoin pyramid scheme. On their website this altcoin is presented as an investment opportunity where the value of the coins you own increases with the number of users. > The value of Gulden is determined by the demand for Gulden, as with gold or silver. The price can go up or d…

Apart from you associating wanting back the old Gulden and leaving the EU with being part of a lower-economic class, which it find extremely elitist, condescending and it annoys me greatly... Gulden is used for actual value transfer that is easier than currently possible between banks, I can just transfer value to you by scanning your QR code. As such there is value in this method. Moreover I can not only transfer va…

I understand your annoyance about the class statement, but demographically speaking I'm not far off the mark. Appearances aside, marketeers don't choose names at random. There is a thought-through business plan behind this that specifically targets a certain demographic — I contend that a good part of the group targeted here can often ill-afford to invest their savings in something as ethereal as an altcoin (which is what they are suggesting on the Gulden website).

> Gulden is used for actual value transfer […]

I can see some of the benefits touted, but for most of those situations cash or our excellent system of debit cards and POS-terminals already do this, and transferring money via IBAN is peanuts (and free within most EU countries). But convenience aside, cash works without a smartphone and middlemen. It's mostly anonymous too.

Besides, I get that companies are vying for the position of the one digital money transfer 'app' here in the Netherlands, because whoever manages to do that is in for a very profitable ride (like that one similar app popular in Sweden), but linking it to their own altcoin seems like a way to propagate a pyramid scheme by means of an app some will find useful.

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