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Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

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Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#231

Post by xamolxix »

towlejunior wrote: post #132
danudey wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe doesn't have the sort of ingrained racism that exists in the United States. For example: > Despite similar rates of drug use, black people are nearly four times as likely to be arrested for marijuana use,⁴ and black males are often given longer sentences for crimes than their white peers.⁵ [ from https://medium.com/@dan_nott/what-is-mass-incarceration-ff73... ] Likewise, women tend to make significantly less m…

>Europe doesn't have the sort of ingrained racism that exists in the United States. Who's throwing bananas at their black soccer players?

It's called football

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#232

Post by [deleted] »

cb18 wrote: post #207
braythwayt wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your entire argument is based on a false dichotomy. You say “There is no racism, everything can be explained by black people” and then try to demonstrate that black people have some problem or other. But this is like saying that a road cannot be unsafe, look, here are statistics showing that some of the people who drive are drunk. You trying to demonstrate that black people this or black people that in aggregate does…

When riding a bike, I think it is wise to judge the class "car drivers on Saturday night," different than the class "car drivers on Tuesday afternoon," because "car drivers on Saturday night" are more likely to be drunk. I ignored all the stuff where you went off the rails and started making wacky accusations, or whatever, it wasn't particularly clear... My only mention of blacks was in showing how the talking point…

[deleted]

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#233

Post by wpietri »

cb18 wrote: post #189
wpietri wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I am finding more and more is a certain type of rhetoric, I will call it “Racism Denial.” That's an excellent name for it. What I find especially frustrating about it is how it's dressed up in a search for objective truth. However, the only kind of evidence they want is the kind that proves racism. They never appear to search for evidence for the opposite proposition, that racism does not exist. That's always…

The US's history is enormously racist. We fought an entire civil war over whether black people were actually people. The racism denialists are in effect claiming that on some unspecified date in history, all of that racism evaporated and left no trace in heart, mind, or law. That's the proposition I think we should be demanding evidence for. What explains the similarity in crime rates, test scores, achievement, SES,…

Yes, that's exactly the sort of racism-denialist burden-shifting that I am talking about. Thank you for demonstrating it so neatly.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#234

Post by ManlyBread »

yarper wrote: post #136
danudey wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe doesn't have the sort of ingrained racism that exists in the United States. For example: > Despite similar rates of drug use, black people are nearly four times as likely to be arrested for marijuana use,⁴ and black males are often given longer sentences for crimes than their white peers.⁵ [ from https://medium.com/@dan_nott/what-is-mass-incarceration-ff73... ] Likewise, women tend to make significantly less m…

> Likewise, women tend to make significantly less money for doing the same work, in the same positions, at the same company, because of (largely) subconscious biases. I see this everywhere, and yet no citations (and when asked, I usually get referred to someones blog - not from a respected scientist completely unaffiliated with the feminist movement). Either that or I get linked to 4 or 5 default papers which have li…

>> Likewise, women tend to make significantly less money for doing the same work, in the same positions, at the same company, because of (largely) subconscious biases.

>I see this everywhere, and yet no citations

Because this is a myth based on the infamous "women earn 0.77$ for every 1$ a man earns" statistic. Wikipedia states that the "the gender pay gap is measured as the ratio of female to male median yearly earnings among full-time, year-round (FTYR) workers" - an utterly meaningless number that has no real value, but is great for pushing the myth the other poster has presented.

Why is it meaningless? It's because it seems that no one has the answer to the million dollar (or 0.23$, depending how you look at it) question: "can you name 10 companies that are the worst offenders in this regard". This is the 17th time I ask this question and I have yet to receive an answer. I don't think I'll ever will, though, since if it was actually as big of a problem as feminists like to claim the media wouldn't let such a juicy topic die so easily.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#235

Post by paloaltokid »

ganeshkrishnan wrote: post #196
paloaltokid wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An Indian colleague of mine told me that she felt it was the same in India with respect to the caste system (she was born a Brahmin). She said she could tell from the way people spoke what caste they were from. When I hear folks from India talk about the caste system, it sounds very similar to how people in the US talk about racism against blacks.

No, you cannot tell what caste a person is by the way they talk. There are 800+ languages and thousand of dialects in India. On an average the dialect changes every 7 kilometer is any direction. You cannot also visually tell the difference between high/low caste. The best indicator is last name and hence social strata (centuries of exploitation has left them 'backward'). There are plenty of 'backward caste' people in…

> No, you cannot tell what caste a person is by the way they talk.

That is your belief and experience. I was trying to point out that some people from India feel that the opposite is true.

I have no knowledge of the caste system other than what people have told me from their own experience of being Indian.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#236

Post by paloaltokid »

Ranebow6 wrote: post #161
paloaltokid wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An Indian colleague of mine told me that she felt it was the same in India with respect to the caste system (she was born a Brahmin). She said she could tell from the way people spoke what caste they were from. When I hear folks from India talk about the caste system, it sounds very similar to how people in the US talk about racism against blacks.

Skin whitening products are sold in India and advertised on television. https://www.fairandlovely.in/

Yep, just like in the US.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#237

Post by superpatosainz »

mcguire wrote: post #146
superpatosainz wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add (and replying to rco8786): I think this is not racism. Because ethnicity is not race, and almost everybody by now through mestizaje has native blood. The early colonial period might have a racist component with "sistema de castas" (Spaniard born in America = Criollo, Spaniard with Native = Mestizo, Spaniard with African slave = Mulato, so on). But now race doesn't even matter because we are all almost the same…

Genetically, "races" don't exist; discrimination based on what you want to call ethnicity is exactly the problem

Different indigenous people can share almost the same blood but have vastly different ethnicities, because ethnicity is cultural. Check your history.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#238

Post by reinhardt »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #221
reader5000 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"all these groups of people have the same capacity for talent and skill" What evidence is there to believe this?

This rhetoric in this context is implying that you may be skeptical that black people are as valuable and capable at computer science/information technology as the majority white population. Please reconsider.

This rhetoric in this reply is implying that you may be skeptical that white people are as valuable and capable at basketball as the majority black player population. Please reconsider.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#239

Post by erikpukinskis »

lr4444lr wrote: post #225
erikpukinskis wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason companies hire in this way is to defend against discrimination lawsuits. That sounds like maybe a broader statement that you intended... Certainly not every company has that plan. Are you talking about a specific kind of company?

Perhaps "protect against potential lawsuits" is a better phrasing. Fear of accusations of disparate impact hiring is very real for HR, not to mention the negative press even if you beat the charges. In the specific case of Github, fallout from the Horvath fiasco. Better to spend some resources preventatively to make sure your employee composition can reasonably help fend off attacks.

I understand the kind of company you are talking about, I was just asking if you really intended to say that all companies are like that, or if you are talking about a specific kind of company. In my experience people don't generally think about potential lawsuits all that much. I'm only curious because you must have experience in a different kind of company than me.

I'm gently trying to encourage you to narrow your statement because it is too broad to make sense to me.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#240

Post by wpietri »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #239
lr4444lr wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps "protect against potential lawsuits" is a better phrasing. Fear of accusations of disparate impact hiring is very real for HR, not to mention the negative press even if you beat the charges. In the specific case of Github, fallout from the Horvath fiasco. Better to spend some resources preventatively to make sure your employee composition can reasonably help fend off attacks.

I understand the kind of company you are talking about, I was just asking if you really intended to say that all companies are like that, or if you are talking about a specific kind of company. In my experience people don't generally think about potential lawsuits all that much. I'm only curious because you must have experience in a different kind of company than me. I'm gently trying to encourage you to narrow your…

I'd agree with that. When I've been a hiring manager, I've definitely gone to a lot of trouble to "attempt to counteract the institutionalized discrimination against minorities". Lawsuits were never my worry.
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