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TTIP Leaks

ttip-leaks.org

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Re: TTIP Leaks

#231

Post by dragontamer »

wavefunction wrote: post #221
dragontamer wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because the Opium Wars of 1800s never happened or something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Opium_War Your ignorance of history is outstanding and on display. Whatever the TTIP is, it is most certainly not a secret agreement to allow Opium into the Chinese economy to wreak the common people. We are better and more civilized people today than we were back then. Period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_o…

>>No country actually has the appetite for the amount of warrant-less killing that Imperialism creates The US drone war has been killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people so I wonder if perhaps we do have an appetite for that sort of murder.

Right. You just keep ignoring the good parts of history.

You do realize that America opened up Concentration Camps inside of the Philippine-American War?

Americans retaliated against the Philippinos by creating such lovely orders like "Kill everyone over the age of 10".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_H._Smith#Samar_campaign

> "I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn, the more you kill and burn the better it will please me. I want all persons killed who are capable of bearing arms in actual hostilities against the United States," General Jacob H. Smith said.

America, F-yeah! And of course, the definition of "capable of bearing arms" is:

> "Persons of ten years and older are those designated as being capable of bearing arms"

------

But yeah, continue to pretend that modern war is worse than the past or something. Hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians? F-ing hell, we did 25,000 to 50,000 for s--- and giggles back then. In a single campaign, by a single general who was never punished.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#232

Post by mjevans »

legulere wrote: post #94
witty_username wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> May be there's less violence, but the amount of suffering has skyrocketed over the years. A more than significant amount of people are dependent on tranquilizers and anti-depressants to make their life bearable, because for them it has become mundane and meaningless without. Citation? I haven't heard of anyone who is dependent on tranquilizers or anti-depressants (well, apart from the Internet from people with clin…

The first thing I found on duckduckgo: http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20111019/use-of-antidep... "About 11% of Americans aged 12 or older take antidepressants" (2011) "the rate of antidepressant use in the U.S. has increased nearly 400% since 1988." Many people that are on anti-depressants won't tell you about it. edit: Really? Downvote me just because I provided a source to the claim that more people are on an…

While the criticisms in parallel may be founded, I think a better comparison would be the relative trajectory over time and the comparable rates of prescription in other nations.

It could be that the US is still under diagnosed compared to nations that have national healthcare systems as part of their tax structure.

It could also be that even with the above the US receives more diagnosis for anti-depressants due to quality of life and interactions between the individual and the culture of a given area.

It is my hypothesis (but I've no idea what terms to use for the search) that the culture in the US is less supportive and less about inclusion and empowerment than it has been in the past or possibly than other cultures. However researching that is much more something that those in social sciences should be performing as part of their education and society's investment in to scientific experiments for the public good.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#233

Post by wavefunction »

dragontamer wrote: post #231
wavefunction wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>No country actually has the appetite for the amount of warrant-less killing that Imperialism creates The US drone war has been killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people so I wonder if perhaps we do have an appetite for that sort of murder.

Right. You just keep ignoring the good parts of history. You do realize that America opened up Concentration Camps inside of the Philippine-American War? Americans retaliated against the Philippinos by creating such lovely orders like "Kill everyone over the age of 10". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_H._Smith#Samar_campaign > "I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn, the more you kill and burn the bette…

I am responding to a post that claims that countries no longer engage in the sorts of atrocities found in history to claim that things are not that different. I think we actually spend more effort these days "justifying" the carnage whereas in the past it passed with less comment.

You seem to be tilting at windmills that you erected yourself.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#234

Post by woodpanel »

JPKab wrote: post #102
tommyman wrote: post #9

So business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in the US side of negotiations (far more than any public interest groups). Then on the EU side, business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in negotiations to the detriment of all public groups. So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on ho…

"So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on how to screw over Europe." Let me change this for you to something more accurate: So this is really lots of big multinational corporations negotiating with themselves on how to screw over working people throughout the world. When you start tuning this into "US companies screwing over Europe", you play right into their hands. As if there aren't…

Funny you would mention the totally blown out of proportions emissions scandal. According to TTIPleaks it just happens to be one of the major threats the US made: 'Give in or we bully your car manufacturers.'

Re: TTIP Leaks

#235

Post by dragontamer »

wavefunction wrote: post #233
dragontamer wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. You just keep ignoring the good parts of history. You do realize that America opened up Concentration Camps inside of the Philippine-American War? Americans retaliated against the Philippinos by creating such lovely orders like "Kill everyone over the age of 10". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_H._Smith#Samar_campaign > "I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn, the more you kill and burn the bette…

I am responding to a post that claims that countries no longer engage in the sorts of atrocities found in history to claim that things are not that different. I think we actually spend more effort these days "justifying" the carnage whereas in the past it passed with less comment. You seem to be tilting at windmills that you erected yourself.

Scorched Earth was a STRATEGY of war in the late 1800s / early 1900s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth

Back then, the US was blowing up hospitals as an EXPLICIT strategy to gain an edge over our foes. (Much like how Russia / Assad seem to be doing in Syria right now).

In contrast, when the US accidentally blows up a hospital today, a massive investigation goes through and everyone basically apologizes for it.

You seriously can't compare the 1800s / early 1900s mentality with the mentality of war we have today.

This S--- doesn't happen anymore, not by American commanders anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Walk_of_the_Navajo

-------------

Strictly by the numbers, the Drone Strikes that the US uses are far more precise at targeting than previous "Scorched Earth" campaigns that the Imperialist US used to take.

Comparing the lol Drone Strikes to Imperialist US is... utterly ridiculous from a historical perspective. The heartlessness and cruelty from that era still haunts us today.

No. We have no appetite for the warmongering that Imperialism used to call for. For every example you bring up today, I'll show you a historical example that is strictly worse.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#236

Post by woodpanel »

mvanvoorden wrote: post #72
ppod wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>this is what we get when countries still want to dominate each other. The most peaceful, prosperous, and healthy period known in human history?

You're repeating propaganda. May be there's less violence, but the amount of suffering has skyrocketed over the years. A more than significant amount of people are dependent on tranquilizers and anti-depressants to make their life bearable, because for them it has become mundane and meaningless without. Statistiscs may tell a story of less violence, and people getting older and having more material possessions, but t…

Having "more posessions", posessions at all, "getting older" and the least amount of violence (probably) since ever - constitutes what I'd call the most awesome time for humanity thus far.

What you call WW3, just shows how much capitalism has tamed even the biggest powers and helped make this world a more resilient civilization.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#237

Post by woodpanel »

The Europeans are socialists. In the sense that (anglo-saxons aside) they like to socialize access to justice, thus the codefied law system. Having to switch to abitral courts which decisions cascade into laws and juresprudence, comes in detrimental to european legal cultures. TTIP is thus even more disliked than the European Union itself is, with its regulations and directives.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#238

Post by Zigurd »

kspaans wrote: post #125
RobertoG wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, let's go to the facts: 1. A treaty is negotiated between the two major markets in the world. 2. We know that when this kind of treaties are passed is almost impossible to go back. 3. We know that the most important input to those treaties come from corporations. 4. The conversations happen in secret. 5. The democratic representatives are not allowed to read the treaty except in a hurry and without legal help. 6.…

> 4. The conversations happen in secret. Not commenting on any other aspects of TTIP, but they happen in secret for a reason.[0][1][2] Most trade negotiations are secret too, and if the whole process was public there would be too much bikeshedding and pressure on the negotiators. EDIT: forgot to include a TL;DR summary of why they are secret. Fixed NPR link 0 - http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/06/26/417851577/e…

That might be true in theory. In fact, secrecy is used to hide a vast array of horrors and ram them through under the cover of "trade liberalization."

Re: TTIP Leaks

#240

Post by PavlovsCat »

dragontamer wrote: post #231
wavefunction wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>No country actually has the appetite for the amount of warrant-less killing that Imperialism creates The US drone war has been killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people so I wonder if perhaps we do have an appetite for that sort of murder.

Right. You just keep ignoring the good parts of history. You do realize that America opened up Concentration Camps inside of the Philippine-American War? Americans retaliated against the Philippinos by creating such lovely orders like "Kill everyone over the age of 10". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_H._Smith#Samar_campaign > "I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn, the more you kill and burn the bette…

The baseline isn't even worse stuff, the baseline is decency.
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