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Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

fittish.deadspin.com

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Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#231

Post by lmm »

dalke wrote: post #211
lmm wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a very clear line in this case. Cycling is a human powered sport. Battery, gasoline, nuclear, and other power sources are not allowed. This is why mopeds are not allowed. Also prohibited is temporary power storage like a capacitor or spring, which might be used for regenerative braking. Doesn't a derailleur have to have a spring in it? And any chain will have a certain amount of tension that allows it to st…

Like I said, "ever-present rules lawyering". Even "purely human-powered vehicle" is suspect to rules lawyering. Rompelberg cycled at 268.8 km, in the wake of a dragster pace-car. Would your hypothetical race allow that, given that the vehicle is still human powered?

> Even "purely human-powered vehicle" is suspect to rules lawyering. Rompelberg cycled at 268.8 km, in the wake of a dragster pace-car. Would your hypothetical race allow that, given that the vehicle is still human powered?

The dragster wouldn't be allowed on the course - that seems easy enough to rule out.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#232

Post by braythwayt »

liquidise wrote: post #12

If these bikers lost these races, and i am left to assume they did since the scandal hasn't boiled over yet, i think they can safely pack it in. Losing a race you cheated in is about as low as i can imagine this getting.

Nearly all of the riders in the pro tour lose for the exact same reason that nearly all of the players in a football match don’t score a goal.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#233

Post by wycx »

usrusr wrote: post #175
jacquesm wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bikes already have two really large flywheels.

And people spend a lot of money to make them store just a tiny little less energy.

Except when they are chasing the hour record. Ondrej Sosenka ran 3.2 kg wheels in his 2005 hour record precisely for the flywheel effect.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#234

Post by IshKebab »

niels_olson wrote: post #47

Am I the only cyclist here? I can't imagine voluntarily putting batteries in my bike on a long, mountainous stage. There's no way the batteries will last, and then I'm stuck with dead weight. And, looking through the actual documentary, I didn't see any incontrovertable thermal proof of a battery in any racer. In the guy posing for a shot, yes, but not in the cyclists laboring up the hill.

The maths doesn't work like that. Weight is actually not a huge factor in cycling performance because you mostly go horizontally. Top athletes only go for super-light bikes because they need every tiny advantage they can get.

Adding a battery will increase the weight a bit, but the extra power from the battery more than makes up for it. Let's do some massively oversimplified maths:

A lithium ion battery might have an energy density of 0.5 MJ/kg. A typical insane Tour de France climb might be 2000m. To lift itself that high, the battery-motor system needs to only be (20009.81/500000) ~= 4% efficient!

The actual efficiency will be a lot* higher than that. Usually over 50%, so adding a battery is definitely worth it.

(I haven't mentioned the weight of the motor, which is usually more than the battery - at least on conventional e-bikes, but it still works out as being definitely worth adding.)

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#235

Post by madaxe_again »

niels_olson wrote: post #47

Am I the only cyclist here? I can't imagine voluntarily putting batteries in my bike on a long, mountainous stage. There's no way the batteries will last, and then I'm stuck with dead weight. And, looking through the actual documentary, I didn't see any incontrovertable thermal proof of a battery in any racer. In the guy posing for a shot, yes, but not in the cyclists laboring up the hill.

IMR 18650s are very light, will fit in pretty any much tube on a bike, potentially even inside a tyre on a tubeless job, and will push 80A for 120 seconds, which is a crap-tonne of power.

Having a battery assist is the difference between working hard for an entire hill climb, or being able to do 30 seconds on 30 seconds off and fartlek your way up the hill - which is the difference between winning and losing.

For the mass of 10 cells (500g) you can get 25aH - which works out as about 60W for an hour at 2.5v - which is enough to save you 10% of your energy expenditure over a one hour race if you're going hell for leather - which is still the difference between winning and losing.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#236

Post by WatchDog »

wobbleblob wrote: post #191
bigiain wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope - that was aimed at me not them - but I'm happy to let the stereotype burn stand ;-) I will say to a first approximation, 100% of the RadioShack lycra liveried carbon fibre Trek riders I see riding through Sydney traffic on a weekday morning are _not_ Lance Armstrong class riders. (Not any more than I'm a Carl Fogarty or Troy Bayliss class motorcycle racer when I put my racing leathers on and fire up my Ducati M…

A little off topic, but what's cycling like there? From what I've heard (never been there) Australia is about as close as it gets to the perfect society... except they hate cyclists like the plague?

I commute to work on an e-bike in Melbourne. My route is mostly on trails and roads with dedicated bike lanes, so its pretty easy going. The hate towards cyclists might be a bit overstated. Some of it is justified as cyclists will often break road rules, I usually see multiple cyclists run red lights every day. Ive seen more aggression coming from cyclists then I have seen from drivers aimed at cyclists, but obviously aggressive drivers are much more dangerous than aggressive cyclists.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#237

Post by WatchDog »

antientropic wrote: post #203
dandare wrote: post #179

There is a clear evidence from Vuleta 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynLMfzLTc8M The cyclosport officials intentionally hide/enable the problem for years.

That is in no way "clear evidence", the opinions of all the Youtube commenters notwithstanding. It can just as well be explained by the rotation of the rear wheel, see for example https://youtu.be/aN7HjwZI-k0?t=32 .

It looks like the bike comes to a rest with the tire in contact with the road, presumably stopping the rotation of the wheel. Then when the cyclist lets go of the bike it takes off.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#238

Post by jdietrich »

lmm wrote: post #193
dalke wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is no actual line between the use of gears and the use of motors. There's a very clear line in this case. Cycling is a human powered sport. Battery, gasoline, nuclear, and other power sources are not allowed. This is why mopeds are not allowed. Also prohibited is temporary power storage like a capacitor or spring, which might be used for regenerative braking. You can put all the motors you want on your bike (…

> There's a very clear line in this case. Cycling is a human powered sport. Battery, gasoline, nuclear, and other power sources are not allowed. This is why mopeds are not allowed. Also prohibited is temporary power storage like a capacitor or spring, which might be used for regenerative braking. Doesn't a derailleur have to have a spring in it? And any chain will have a certain amount of tension that allows it to st…

Several organisations promote races for non-UCI bikes.

http://www.ihpva.org/ http://www.bhpc.org.uk/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR9Nykvp_-I

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#239

Post by sorenjan »

benjiweber wrote: post #44
randlet wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems trivial to detect now though. It's no problem to just tear down the bikes of the first X finishers to look for mechanical aids. Detecting doping reliably is much trickier. edit: I think most high level bikes use carbon fibre frames? You could probably just use x-ray or ultrasound imaging to look for anything suspicious in the frame.

It's quite common to switch bike with one from a support car during a stage (Due to mechanical faults or otherwise). This could make it tougher.

I don't speak french, but in the video in the article they show several cyclists changing bikes for no apparent reason. I'm guessing that the film makers theory is that they're switching bikes to pass inspection after finishing the race, that's at least the suspicion I get when watching it.

I think switching bikes during the race should be banned. Fixing a flat tire, a malfunctioning chain or similar can be allowed, but if your bike breaks beyond repair that should be the end of the race. Ask your manufacturer for better quality next time.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#240

Post by mnw21cam »

bigiain wrote: post #157
wobbleblob wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose? Why not ride a scooter? Not aimed at you personally, but in my commute I'm not happy with all these motorized bicycles on the bike lane nowadays. They're usually ridden by people who don't race seriously, and are now riding 30+ km/h, but doing it as though they're still going 15 km/h: not looking behind them before passing or turning, immediately ringing their bell if you're i…

I also ride motorcycles, but the bicycle I can ride int the lobby and take up the lift to the office - it's quicker door-to-door (over 8km) than the motorcycle, which I sometimes get to park close by but if I don't come in early I end up parking a few blocks away (or _gasp_ paying for parking). I;m with you on the dangers of people who don't have good situational awareness zooming around on electric bikes - but I thi…

> And crucially, I can ride the cheater bike home from the pub after a few beers...

Not in the UK, you can't. Drunk in charge of a vehicle, no matter that the vehicle is just a bicycle.

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