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Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

nytimes.com

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Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#231

Post by gkya »

steve19 wrote: post #212
gkya wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ottoman? Janissaries, for a time, were so active in deciding who would be the sultan that, they were abolished by, IIRC, sultan Mahmud II. Erdogan has subjugated the police and the army, which were in the past very active in the political scene (frequent coups d'état, many parliamenters from veterans). And I guess if we preserved the ruling house like the Brits and the spaniards did, and also some form of the Calipha…

"Under the Ottomans, yes, the muslim were a bit more advantageous, but not less subject to the sultanate than the christian subjects." Only if you ignore the genocide of 1.5 million Armenians and other minority Christian groups. Think before you write. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Put your reading glasses on. And mind your language. There are many armenian citizens of turkey, maybe I'm one of them? Where do I say that I'm ethnically turkish? Think before you write.

I say this, in the sentence before the one you quote:

> AFAIK, it wasn't until nationalism took on that the major conflicts started.

The genocide happened during the late nineteenth-early twentieth century. Armenians were under Ottoman rule since long before, so were Greeks.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#232

Post by studentrob »

stale2002 wrote: post #227
gkya wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to be mindful of what you say, that is, you mustn't say things you can't prove. You mustn't lie. Or else, you'll be disproved, and announced publicly as a liar. I don't say that you are not free to lie, though, what I say is, in this case, by lying, you accept such consequences. By saying something, you're responsible to its truth. You're free to insult, but you don't have to. If you do so, people will get o…

You can't go around talking about how people are "free to insult" but that other people have a right not to be insulted. That is BS double speak. Either you believe in free speech or you don't. Don't pussy foot around it. If you believe that people should be arrested for insulting people in the wrong way then SAY it! Dont hide behind some human dignity double speak.

@gkya doesn't have the American or even European understanding of free speech. He's got his own definition and I doubt we will be able to convince him via the internet how simple the issue is and how complicated he is making it. I'm totally with you, by the way.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#233

Post by studentrob »

gkya wrote: post #157
studentrob wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure The US is strong in the business world because they endure differing opinions! Astute businessmen can see how limiting free speech limits their own success. Good businessmen do not surround themselves with yes-men. When you limit free speech of a country, you cut off most of your people from certain intelligence. You could argue the intelligence agency has…

> You're not allowed to yell fire in a crowded theater. Come on mate, I thought we're talking about political speech :) With regards to Erdogan as a businessman, the thing is, he is using his position to prosper as a rich man. I repeat, he has no care about what happens to the country. There are no ideologies, no nothing here. He uses the state as a means to cash in what he can. And he has his circle of assistants et…

> he is using his position to prosper as a rich man

I just said he would prosper more by accepting the diversity that exists in his region and the world. You're not even reading my comment, you're just repeating the same thing you said before.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#234

Post by studentrob »

gkya wrote: post #181
studentrob wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's probably worth noting that I don't think @gkya is supporting Erdogan Thanks, I see that now. Some of @gkya's words sounded like they take the opposite viewpoint, such as, >> Speech should not be regulated in any ways >> Freedom of speech does not mean irresponsible and banale flow of whatever one thinks. >> freedom of speech must not mean that one can be reckless, inconsiderate and demeaning. It reads like it…

I'm sorry if I've been unclear. I do not in any ways support Erdogan. Though I insist that freedom of speech does not mean that one can be irresponsible of what he says.

Everything you say and do has consequences whether you accept them or not. Free speech says the state cannot punish you for what you say, with certain small exceptions that vary by country that has free speech, such as libel and direct threats on someone's life.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#235

Post by studentrob »

jessaustin wrote: post #167
Tomte wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the predominant American view, which is pretty... extremist. Sure, "free speech exactly like in the US" is a binary issue. Free speech, as sensibly construed, is a whole spectrum.

We have lots of problems, but "extremist" speech ain't one of them.

Lol. According to some, speech justifies mass killings. And the world keeps spinning..

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#236

Post by tomhoward »

0xFFC wrote: post #224
dang wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment, and others that you've posted (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11399333 ) break the HN guidelines badly by calling names and being personally rude. We ban accounts that do those things, so please don't do them. In particular, please edit phrases like the following out of your posts to HN: This is pure nonsense. Are you kidding me? do you have any idea what you are talking about? You have no cl…

Thanks for notifying, but I don't have editing option on those comment. I would be glad to edit them but I don't have option to do (I don't know why).

Editing of a comment is only possible for 2 hours after posting. This is to prevent people from trying to "rewrite history" at any time in the future.

But in a case like this, dang may be happy to let you edit or delete the comment.

You should email hn@ycombinator.com to request this.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#237

Post by dang »

calibraxis wrote: post #230
dang wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rather than mislead everyone That's a form of personal attack which is inevitably provocative of a much worse thread. Please edit such rudeness out of your posts here. Your question would have been fine, and less self-undermining, had you done so.

When faced with abusers [1], it may be mentally healthiest to briefly indulge in slightly-unpleasant words like: "Rather than mislead everyone..." Why? Abuse stays with people during the day, and it is better to ever-so-slightly reflect it back on the abuser, than for it to come out on your employees (or friends, children, dog...) [1] "You have no clue what are you talking about", "how much people can be stupid and n…

That degree of finesse could justify anything on HN. Please just be civil.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#238

Post by studentrob »

nl wrote: post #223
studentrob wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's probably worth noting that I don't think @gkya is supporting Erdogan Thanks, I see that now. Some of @gkya's words sounded like they take the opposite viewpoint, such as, >> Speech should not be regulated in any ways >> Freedom of speech does not mean irresponsible and banale flow of whatever one thinks. >> freedom of speech must not mean that one can be reckless, inconsiderate and demeaning. It reads like it…

>> When one looks at his actions in the light of those motives his actions make a lot of sense. Without those motives his actions appear stupid. > I disagree, see my comments about astute businessmen not using yes-men above. No worries if we don't agree here. Countries are most certainly businesses. They're in the business of acquiring people who generate money. Right, but that is assuming that Erdogan is trying to d…

> Many would argue his primary concern is Erdogan's interests in the short term.

Former dictators who censored speech don't generally have happy post-political careers. I wouldn't imagine trying to put a strangle hold on a whole country's speech is exactly stress free either.

Whether he is planning for the short term or for his whole life, Erdogan isn't so bright as @gkya would have you believe. He certainly doesn't have the best interests of his country in mind. However, I'll add something else you may not expect me to believe, which is that I believe everyone does things in their own interests. I wouldn't expect anyone to do otherwise. Erdogan's behavior is simply a matter of foresight. He's not seeing his own future clearly.

Ergo, Erdogan isn't bright.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#239

Post by microtonal »

tremon wrote: post #159
microtonal wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. But I fully agree with your observation. But I think there is hope. For instance, the mayor of the second-largest Dutch city (Rotterdam) is a Moroccan immigrant. Such people are role models for people with an immigrant background (you can make it in The Netherlands) and a Dutch background (in terms of acceptance).

Rotterdam is actually the largest Dutch city, though second in rank (Amsterdam is the capital, but it's smaller than Rotterdam).

Wikipedia numbers:

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam : 834.119 inhabitants

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam : 630.383 inhabitants

Maybe you are confused with The Hague, which is smaller than both, but the seat of the parliament and government? (Or perhaps you are looking at the surface area, which is not really interesting in this context.)

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#240

Post by nl »

studentrob wrote: post #238
nl wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> When one looks at his actions in the light of those motives his actions make a lot of sense. Without those motives his actions appear stupid. > I disagree, see my comments about astute businessmen not using yes-men above. No worries if we don't agree here. Countries are most certainly businesses. They're in the business of acquiring people who generate money. Right, but that is assuming that Erdogan is trying to d…

> Many would argue his primary concern is Erdogan's interests in the short term. Former dictators who censored speech don't generally have happy post-political careers. I wouldn't imagine trying to put a strangle hold on a whole country's speech is exactly stress free either. Whether he is planning for the short term or for his whole life, Erdogan isn't so bright as @gkya would have you believe. He certainly doesn't…

Ergo, Erdogan isn't bright.

No one - least of all @gkya - is saying he is bright. They are saying his actions aren't stupid.

Former dictators who censored speech don't generally have happy post-political careers.

Plenty have died in office while still holding power, too. Most of Turkey's immediate neighbors have had dictators who died while in power.

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