We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else • Hacker News Board

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#231

Post by andrewflnr » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:20 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #44

was_boring wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a job like that once, and it was clear to me I didn't fit there for a variety of reasons so I left because I wanted to make a difference at my job and not be a "resource". I then got a job at a "stable" startup working remotely for twice the pay that the boring industry would pay.

No need to create a throw-away account to share your personal experience. I've worked in traditionally boring industries that treated programmers as resources to be allocated (healthcare, logistics). Sometimes it's still possible to make a difference. For example the logistics job I had, we were often the only development resources our clients had, so when they wanted to run a promotion or do something like that, our…

"was_boring" is a pretty good general-purpose handle IMO. I think they should keep it.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#232

Post by brooklyndavs » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:26 PM UTC

OpenDrapery wrote: post #146

jrs235 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As stated several times over the years, particularly on HN and by patio11 (edit: or was it Joel on Software? Perhaps both?), work for a profit center not a cost center. The internal software to run insurance companies is a cost center. It is in managements interest to reduce and keep costs down... that's detrimental to what you do. Working on a software product or Saas is a profit center. What you are making is to be…

In addition to my previous comment, I'd like to hear people's thoughts on the "consulting" gig. It seems to rule here. You know the routine. Consulting shop places an individual at a client site and charges the client $100 an hour, and then turns around and gives the consultant less than half of it. I can see the argument of the consulting firm viewing their people both as profit centers and cost centers. Why are the…

I use to be in the enterprise "consulting" gig. As a consultant its terrible. The only rate you know is what you are making, and thats just at the per year level. As the consultant you never know what is being changed to the client and so you never know your actual worth. Rates are probably the closest guarded secret for consulting firms. Plus you are a profit center to the consulting company but a cost center to the client. So there is the horrible pull between your management to "maximize the billable hour" and the client wanting to keep costs on the project down. Oh, and god forbid you are on a flat rate project where the only limit is time. Be prepared to work 80hrs and have no life.

I've seen two reasons why mega insurance company inc brings in "consultants." One is the consultant is specialized in an area of tech that is completely outside of the companies expertise. I did some of this being in a niche area of enterprise security. While those contracts still suck they suck a little less because you are at least advising the company and getting them up to speed on something. The other type, and the most common type is the "staff augmentation". I've been on those projects too and its exactly how they seem. The company has some in house knowledge (say a manager of infrastructure and maybe one full time employee for that tech) but the rest is really about throwing bodies at a project. From the client's perspective its all about workforce flexibility and not having the expense of a full time employee on the books. Even at like 100/hr its cheaper I guess for them vs having a full time employee. Plus its not their "core business" although in 2016 I'd argue if you are running a company it's insane not to think of tech as part of your "core business."

Overall, between the unsteady work, travel, etc being an enterprise consultant sucks. Most people that I know go into it because the potential to make a bit more money vs a traditional job at mega insurance company inc is there and they don't like the idea of working for mega insurance company inc for years. However, I've been on contracts where the project is like two years long so you might as well be working for mega insurance company inc anyway.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#233

Post by vpeters25 » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:28 PM UTC

struppi wrote: post #33

Also: Give the "not-the-best" people a chance to develop. The CEO of one of my past clients, a consulting company, always said: "You can teach everyone to be a great programmer". And he put his money where his mouth was: He hired people with no programming experience (even with no university education) and personally trained them for several months . Also, senior people in the company were encouraged to also help the…

> "You can teach everyone to be a great programmer"

They tried this during the dot-com boom of the late 90's... I don't think it worked out too well.

They hired just about anyone and paid crazy rates. You could point them out for showing up their first day carrying a "learn ASP in 24 hrs" book.

Fortunately, the dot-com bust weeded them out. Most of these people went back to sell cars or whatever they were doing before while we had to clean out their messes.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#234

Post by linkregister » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #230

andrewstuart wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can teach everyone to be a great programmer" Flat out dead wrong. If you hire "anyone" and try to teach them to be a programmer then you will probably fire them. This is the sort of attitude that leads companies to outsource their development overseas: "Our programmers are people hitting keys. We'll get overseas people to hit keys and overseas people hit keys for less money.", cause, you know, anyone can do it.…

You know what the irony is? Us programmers thinking that "everyone can be a great programmer" is our preponderant liberal and very idealistic views showing. And we keep going around and shout that and other people believe it. And in turn we are being taken advantage of with long hours, unfair compensation for our contributions and the worse of it all? Ageism in our industry is rampant. I look at physicians, surgeons,…

30 seems a little young, even for startups. I mostly hear about people getting pushed out of mid-size companies at 45 instead.

Note: government is not one of these industries. Developers are underpaid but the job security is real.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#235

Post by danbruc » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:33 PM UTC

Domenic_S wrote: post #197

rokhayakebe wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since there will never be a consensus on the definition of "great programmer" you really cannot argue this point.

With maybe 100 exceptions ever, there is no universally great programmer, there is only "great programmer for the job."

I would argue it is the exact opposite. On day one name a programming language, important libraries and whatnot and hand out a stack of documents explaining the problem domain. The new guy hasn't necessarily seen or heard about anything of that before. If he can compete with your other good developers after a month, you have found a great programmer. I mean of course if he can do this repeatedly, not that he just was a pretty good fit for the requirements by sheer luck.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#236

Post by jsprogrammer » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:34 PM UTC

andrewflnr wrote: post #228

jsprogrammer wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last consulting firm accounted their consultant salaries as a cost center, despite our hours worked being directly billed to the client. I left about two weeks after finding out.

Does that affect you financially, or did you just think it showed the wrong perspective?

It was many. The numbers the company provided to me failed to account for a significant portion of my billed revenue. Presumably the missing money made it to the top level in some way.

I also objected to the idea that someone who directly generates revenue was being labeled a cost center. I left, as did my junior consultant, and shortly after the company failed to gain ongoing contracts at the very large financial services corporation they were trying to break in to.

My main problem with that job however, was that they recruited me as a greenfield .NET developer, but then had me analysing some 800 columns over dozens of tables looking for software errors that were causing incorrect results in the 401k accounts for which our client was the steward.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#237

Post by enraged_camel » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:35 PM UTC

szx wrote: post #193

enraged_camel wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So candidates are expected to work evenings and weekends instead of spending that time with their families? The process seems to strongly favor young and single folks. Then again maybe that's fully intended. The tech industry has a huge ageism problem after all.

Can you suggest a better alternative? Then again, maybe it's time to stop looking for a one size fits all solution and acknowledge that (in an ideal world) we might want to have different processes for different candidates, depending on their life situation and/or individual priorities?

Ok, so what's your process for candidates who have families and/or can't/won't work on evenings and weekends?

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#238

Post by jrs235 » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:35 PM UTC

lgieron wrote: post #141

jrs235 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As stated several times over the years, particularly on HN and by patio11 (edit: or was it Joel on Software? Perhaps both?), work for a profit center not a cost center. The internal software to run insurance companies is a cost center. It is in managements interest to reduce and keep costs down... that's detrimental to what you do. Working on a software product or Saas is a profit center. What you are making is to be…

Not sure it's that simple. For example, in many places banks pay the most. Sure, they pay even more to their earners (traders, dealmakers etc.), but they make so much money on their business in general that they can shell out top dollars even for their digital janitors. Contrast that with places where you work on products such as computer vision-based gizmos, CAD software etc - even though you're bringing in the prof…

They might pay well but the work environment and "culture" would probably leave many disappointed.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#239

Post by pmalynin » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:37 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #230

andrewstuart wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can teach everyone to be a great programmer" Flat out dead wrong. If you hire "anyone" and try to teach them to be a programmer then you will probably fire them. This is the sort of attitude that leads companies to outsource their development overseas: "Our programmers are people hitting keys. We'll get overseas people to hit keys and overseas people hit keys for less money.", cause, you know, anyone can do it.…

You know what the irony is? Us programmers thinking that "everyone can be a great programmer" is our preponderant liberal and very idealistic views showing. And we keep going around and shout that and other people believe it. And in turn we are being taken advantage of with long hours, unfair compensation for our contributions and the worse of it all? Ageism in our industry is rampant. I look at physicians, surgeons,…

To be honest I think the statement should be "anyone can learn to program". To be a great programmer requires many things to align, and mental disorders count as well. A combination of mild autism and mild depression (melancholy?), social isolation and environment in general I think is necessary, but tip the balance in either direction and things start to get real shitty real quick.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#240

Post by fsloth » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:38 PM UTC

vpeters25 wrote: post #233

struppi wrote: post #33

Also: Give the "not-the-best" people a chance to develop. The CEO of one of my past clients, a consulting company, always said: "You can teach everyone to be a great programmer". And he put his money where his mouth was: He hired people with no programming experience (even with no university education) and personally trained them for several months . Also, senior people in the company were encouraged to also help the…

> "You can teach everyone to be a great programmer" They tried this during the dot-com boom of the late 90's... I don't think it worked out too well. They hired just about anyone and paid crazy rates. You could point them out for showing up their first day carrying a "learn ASP in 24 hrs" book. Fortunately, the dot-com bust weeded them out. Most of these people went back to sell cars or whatever they were doing befor…

"They hired just about anyone and paid crazy rates"

I don't think this proves your point. Just hiring someone to do a job does not equal teaching them. Teaching means not only practice, but also well constructed feedback and sufficient time and space to learn, and to learn from ones mistakes.

Kludging an ASP application together after reading "learn ASP in 24 hrs" does teach something, but there is so much noise that you need expert guidance to interpret the results correctly and point into things that need improving.