VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks • Hacker News Board

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#231

Post by ashaiber » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 2:07 PM UTC

DamnYuppie wrote: post #136

megalodon wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

World's largest arms exporter: US ($10,194,000,000 in 2014) World's largest arms importer: Saudi Arabia ($4,243,000,000 in 2014) To me, these are scary numbers. > When a country decides to invest in arms, rather than in education, housing, the environment, and health services for its people, it is depriving a whole generation of its right to prosperity and happiness. We have produced one firearm for every ten inhabit…

It appears, from what I could find, that Saudia Arabia's yearly spending on education is $57.9B, they spend $42.7B on health, with a total spending of $229.3. So they spend 25% of their budget on education and less then 2% on arms importation. Yes they could spend that money on something else, but please don't make it seem like they are neglecting healthcare or educational spending for arms. http://www.us-sabc.org/cu…

Perhaps considering the total military expenditure will provide a better perspective - $80B for Saudi Arabia in 2014; 3rd highest in the world in $ terms, and highest in the world in terms of percent of GDP (10.7%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_...

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#232

Post by sangnoir » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 2:07 PM UTC

omginternets wrote: post #127

hk__2 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Parisian battlefield (yes... that's sadly what it has become) Could you expand on that? I live in Paris too and I don’t feel it has anything different from another city like London or New-York regarding security.

Well, for starters, a group of trained soldiers from a wannabe state slaughtered innocent civilians in our streets, detonated a bomb in a stadium (where, I remind you, our President was located) ... I would also remind you that there's really nothing to prevent this from happening again and again. Our security forces do not have a handle on this, and our president is declaring war. We've had two gunfights in the midd…

I have no intention of belittling your experience - but "battlefield" is not the right term (unless you meant it as hyperbole). There were no battles fought (a battle is "sustained fight between large organized armed forces" according to Google).

This was a terrorist attack on French soil - in Paris, the thought has weight-enough on its own, there is no need to frame it as a battle.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#233

Post by cygx » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 2:07 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #196

cygx wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make no mistake, I'm not a fan of 'conservative' Christianity. As I mentioned elsewhere, the problems are ideologies, in particular those that promote totalitarianism and unreason - whether or not they are religious in nature is incidental to me. However, note that no beheadings have been staged in Vatican City in recent years.

> However, note that no beheadings have been staged in Vatican City in recent years. True, but I think it's more complex than that. First, I do not think the Vatican automatically represents the most conservative brand of Christianity; not at all times, anyway. Not now, for example. Second, beheadings seem rightfully barbaric and horrendous to us, but as terrible as they are, I think their impact is superficial in a…

Wouldn't people living in a city bombed by a Western country consider themselves the victims of Western religious zealots?

Absolutely, and from my perspective, some western nations (in particular the US) do have the problematic tendency of voting Christian fundamentalists into positions of power.

There's a debate to be had how much of the blame for past actions should go to religion, and how much to worldly motivations, but there clearly was an element of that (remember Gog and Magog?).

But talking the long-term perspective, religious 'nones' are on the rise in the western world, even in the US.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#234

Post by drinchev » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 2:07 PM UTC

iamthepieman wrote: post #108

drinchev wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello. I really like your honesty, courage and passion that I can sense from what you wrote. I don't want to sound offending, but you are saying that you are happy to discuss this and I have almost no contact with deep religious persons that are in IT, so I have a couple of questions. 1. Where is the boundary of your beliefs? I'm always trying to be polite with my dev co-workers, but for example if I write a flagged…

Hi these don't offend me at all but I think they deserve a more thoughtful response than I am able to give at this moment. I'll try to write a proper response during lunch today. Ok I've got some time now for a brief response. 1. There are none. And where there are I try to push them. I don't really see your example as a boundary issue. If other people malign or ridicule my beliefs it doesn't really bother me except…

Thank you so much for this. Not only you, but thanks everyone that took part in this conversation.

I definitely have better understanding now.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#235

Post by rtpg » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 2:08 PM UTC

gotchange wrote: post #203

jacquesm wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too. All these people have at least one thing in common: they would like to change society to suit their ends. And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become v…

> they would like to change society to suit their ends. What would be those means employed by non-Muslim radicals to effect social change? I'm inclined to say that urban warfare and terrorizing an entire population with open aggression tactics are not among them.

Wasn't there that guy in Santa Barbara who shot a bunch of women because he hated them? The Waco seige? No one has a monopoly on violence for attempting social change

Though here that's beside the point. The Paris attacks were not because France is a free country, but because France was bombing Daesh. This is more like the Lockerbie bombing than like some sort of "clash of civilizations" that so many are implying

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#236

Post by crusso » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 2:09 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #142

iamthepieman wrote: post #37

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions an…

I have an honest question here. As a believer in the Christian faith, do you believe Angels exist? And all or some of the other supernatural tales from the bible and the faith? I am ashamed to admit that I didn't realize until I was well after 25 that followers of the faith, some of them, really believed in such beings and that priests of the Christian faith have to at least pretend to do so as well. I was raised cat…

I know plenty of people who literally believe in angels, the resurrection of Jesus, the turning of water into wine, the divine miracle of statues that appear to be weeping, etc.

I have had countless discussions (ok, arguments) with people who believe in the literal Biblical story of Creation, the talking Satan snake, and the flood that Noah endured.

They think that Evolutionary theory is a hoax and it's basically impossible to even get them to look carefully at convincing evidence like the fossil record, arctic ice samples, evolutionary history in DNA, or anything else that might point against their belief in the Creation myth.

I think that it's a weakness of the modern Westerner to disregard the depth of religious belief in fanatics.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#237

Post by fauigerzigerk » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 2:09 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #70

cygx wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's not "all Muslisms". But those who claim "it's only the terrorists" or "it's all politics" do not grasp the scope of the problem, ie that globally speaking, a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. If you naively extrapolate from the 2013 Pew Poll The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society (which in principle represents nations with a tot…

> a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too. All these people have at least one thing in common: they would like to change society to suit their ends. And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become v…

>And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become victims of that 40%

That statement really doesn't make much sense at all. People are fleeing a war, among them people from the 40% and the 60% group alike. And no one in Europe is advocating throwing anyone back into a war zone. Many want the refugees stay somewhere in the region instead of letting them come to Europe by the millions.

It's not my opinion, but please don't compare that opinion with people who advocate that homosexuals, adulterers and apostates should be put to death. There is no 40% group of the population in Europe that holds views that are anywhere near as disgusting as that. Your relativism goes too far.

[Edit] And just to make it clear, I do not believe that it is really 40% who really hold those opinions. It's probably less. I hope.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#238

Post by cygx » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 2:09 PM UTC

Arnt wrote: post #229

cygx wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's not "all Muslisms". But those who claim "it's only the terrorists" or "it's all politics" do not grasp the scope of the problem, ie that globally speaking, a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. If you naively extrapolate from the 2013 Pew Poll The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society (which in principle represents nations with a tot…

Yeah, well. I think the key word is naïve. There's a mosque around the corner from where I live, and a lot of people called Mohamed and Hilay and so on live in the area. Few of them visit that mosque, so if your extrapolation were right, there should be a considerable number of murdered apostates. Which there isn't.

You do know how the process of computing an average works?

Im guessing you're not living in, say, Egypt or Pakistan, are you?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#239

Post by oblio » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 2:10 PM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #166

lmm wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed but it works both ways - non-religious harmful ideologies can be almost as bad. What proportion of people - even of western college-educated liberals - genuinely , in their heart of hearts, supports free speech even when it's speech they disagree with, freedom of religion even when it's a religion they disagree with, and all the other enlightenment values? I fear it's pretty low.

I support freedom of speech - absolute and unrestricted. I don't support freedom of religion, but support freedom from religion - no other human should be able to force religion on other. The religion should be private matter to the individual and individual alone.

> I support freedom of speech - absolute and unrestricted.

What if my "free speech" involves drawing masses of people and telling them, persuading them, to kill you, your wife, your kids, your mother and father because you have the wrong skin color, eye color, religion or whatever else I imagine?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#240

Post by venomsnake » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 2:11 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #220

venomsnake wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support freedom of speech - absolute and unrestricted. I don't support freedom of religion, but support freedom from religion - no other human should be able to force religion on other. The religion should be private matter to the individual and individual alone.

> I support freedom of speech - absolute and unrestricted. I don't support freedom of religion That, at first reading does not appear to be internally consistent. At some level freedom of religion is freedom of speech. Unless you want to lobotomize people who are religious so they no longer speak their mind on the subject but you can't have the one without the other.

Religion is more than just beliefs and speech. It is also religious organizations, religious rituals and so on.

The first part I support - no one should be prevented (or punished) for saying - I believe in X. On the other hand there should be total override of secular laws towards the commandments - if your country orders you (or forbids you from doing) something that contradicts with your beliefs - you do it, and sort it out with your deity later.