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Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

reuters.com

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Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#231

Post by tmalsburg2 »

robotcookies wrote: post #134
austinjp wrote: post #129

Do we think VW are the only car manufacturer doing this? I very much doubt it. They're just the first to get caught. Where rules stand in the way of profit, they get bent or broken. Banking, automotive industry... which next? Oil? Housing? Pfff ... come on, we all know they're rotten, it's just a question of how rotten and whether it comes out. I suspect it's the tip of the iceberg for the auto industry. Whether we g…

Why are so many people keen on defending VW with the claim "if VW are doing it, everyone else must be"? That dilutes the severity of this problem. I've seen several threads on HN meant to do this.

Not to defend VW but "the severity of the problem"? Let's put this problem in context: VW cars may have more emissions that we used to think but at the same time a large part of the population insists on driving ridiculously oversized trucks which guzzle breathtaking amounts of gas for no good reason. I think the outrage is completely out of proportion.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#232

Post by ams6110 »

sheepmullet wrote: post #174
randcraw wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like NASA, auto companies like VW produce a TON of documentation on all phases of design and engineering. This is especially true when it comes to regulation-sensitive processes like emissions testing. As someone who has worked in a comparably highly regulated industry (pharma) I can state with full confidence that Mr Horn is a lying bastard.

> Like NASA, auto companies like VW produce a TON of documentation on all phases of design and engineering. This is especially true when it comes to regulation-sensitive processes like emissions testing. Bingo! A lot of HN is acting like "it could slip through the processes we have at work so I can see how it could happen here" without realising that the processes, documentation, and independent review requirements a…

I'm not sure emissions controls are considered "critical firmware" in the same sense as systems that could actually kill the occupants of the vehicle if they fail. Or rather, I hope they aren't.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#233

Post by cpeterso »

Dav3xor wrote: post #99
dogma1138 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you don't know the motor industry very much as it has very strict coding standards like ISO 26262, the code has to be audited internally and by certified 3rd parties with every release to meet the development cycle requirements of the standards. http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-... The industry also has specific coding standard for every language that is used in embedded systems like M…

I've worked at a couple different companies that made safety critical software, and I have to agree with joezedeco. Dav3xor's Law -- Code Quality is Inversely Proportional to Risk.

Any theories why? Maybe because these big systems are outsourced to multiple low-ball vendors and their stitched together?

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#234

Post by sdrothrock »

outside1234 wrote: post #96
greggman wrote: post #82

This pass the buck attitude really pisses me off. You're the head of the company, department, whatever, it's your gawd damn responsibility if your subordinates do something wrong. If you hired bad people it's still your responsibility. If you hired people that hired people it's still your responsibility. I don't care if you knew or not. You set the tone, you set the impossible deadlines or requirements. You fostered…

My favorite manager ever told me when I took my first management job that "you can delegate work but not responsibility"

The one I've heard is "work flows downward, but responsibility flows upward."

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#235

Post by bertil »

If what he is saying is true (which is about as likely as me getting pregnant), that would be far, far worst than cheating for a test: he is saying two people can put a chemical storage, undetected, and release it according to a complex plan, without any tester, QA, manager finding about it.

If that blatant lie even makes sense to him, he should not be let near an anything industrial.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#236

Post by plonh »

ams6110 wrote: post #230
taylodl wrote: post #2

"This was a couple of software engineers who put this in for whatever reason," - I'm not buying it. What would be their motive compared say to VW's motive? VW has a heck of a lot more motive for falsifying emissions than do "a couple of software engineers." Even if you were to argue the engineers were somehow fearful for their jobs that's still VW's problem because they're the ones who created that work environment i…

VW will not be out of business in 5 year. Nobody will remember this in 5 years. All the major automakers have manufacturing scandals in their past that resulted in actual deaths, not just fudging some arbitrary emissions standard. They are almost all still in business.

NOx emissions have probably killed people with smog sensitivities.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#237

Post by slavik81 »

Laaw wrote: post #67
mrighele wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found products made by car companies to be in general more reliable than those made by software companies (either in Silicon Valley or not). I trust my life to my car (software included) every day. I wouldn't do that with any software of my smartphone, not even the OS.

Doesn't it blow your mind that there are no "standards of engineering" or whatever for software? There's no licensure body for software engineers who build software running your car, and therefore no accountability on a personal level. When an engineer builds a bridge, she has to personally sign off on the bridge, saying it's safe, and is risking not only her professional career, but I think she can also be jailed an…

A company I worked for had a permit to practice and required engineering sign-off for each release.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#238

Post by Intermernet »

kimdouglasmason wrote: post #104

Nope, definitely systemic within the company. The engine is a system that must meet certain requirements. The standard way of meeting those requirements is to have a urea injection system. That's what the competitors in the US do; it's also what Subaru, for example, don't do, and they don't sell into the US market. In order to pull off this little 2-person hack that Horn alleges, those couple of software engineers wo…

Also, although it's not proof, the simple "follow the money" principle should hint at the truth here. I can't see what 2 engineers would gain from putting so much time and effort into independently creating "defeat devices". In comparison, VW had a lot to gain from fudging the figures (if they hadn't been caught).

If I were an engineer at VW I'd be hunting for a new job right now. The company seems to have no problems pinning systemic failure on individual scapegoats, and I wouldn't want to hang around to be caught in the next round of ritual sacrifice.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#239

Post by ams6110 »

plonh wrote: post #236
ams6110 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VW will not be out of business in 5 year. Nobody will remember this in 5 years. All the major automakers have manufacturing scandals in their past that resulted in actual deaths, not just fudging some arbitrary emissions standard. They are almost all still in business.

NOx emissions have probably killed people with smog sensitivities.

Probably, possibly, statistically contributing -- yeah maybe. But other automakers have made decisions that directly, indisputably, really killed people. Usually to save a couple of dollars on a part.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#240

Post by jessaustin »

kuschku wrote: post #202
jessaustin wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cars were designed in Germany, weren't they? (If not, excuse my shock to find we've been subjected to misleading advertising .) I doubt the engineers reported to the USA guy.

Well, not really. The cars sold in the US have nothing in common with the European models but the name and engine. The US models have different sizes, different engine selections, are fully assembled in the US, etc. Some example images: Interior: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/images/b7/tdi/2012-vw-passat-eu... Exterior: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/images/b7/tdi/euro-passat-diffe... Seats: http://www.myturbodiesel.com…

Wow, that's amazing. I would never have thought it was sensible to make all those tiny changes from one market to another. I guess it's kind of like the changes they make between model years...
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