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Science’s Biggest Fail

blog.dilbert.com

221–230 of 260 posts

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't deny that there are lots of smart people who disagree with me on certain foundational issues. I absolutely deny that the majority of those who do are the 'intelligent supporters' you describe. And if smart people are acting in an idiotic manner, the fact that they have mental horsepower to do better is actually worse.

I absolutely deny that the majority of those who do are the 'intelligent supporters' you describe. Of course, the typical person is dumb. Similarly, the typical evolutionist and typical global-warming guy or pro-vaccines is also dumb. They just happen to be correct on the issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law Sturgeon's Law. 90% of everything #%$#. 90% of creationists are dumb, for the same reason that…

>>>> Have you ever argued with your own supporters? Playing the devil's advocate is pretty fun. The typical evolutionist can't even counter-argue against criticisms against Carbon Dating... or other simple fallacious arguments with regards to evolution. I haven't really argued against my own 'side' but I do examine my own thoughts frequently, and it's kind of alarming how little I know about things. I felt bad about this for a while, but then I realized that this is a necessary state of affairs in the modern world. We can't all be experts on everything.

The crucial point is that if you're going to diverge from the scientific consensus on something, then yeah, you better be an expert. I am willing to entertain Joe Mathematician when he says that some foundational beliefs about math are wrong; I am not willing to believe Joe Small-Business-Owner on the same topic.

Put another way, what's getting lost in all of this is where the burden of proof lies.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I'd never say that not agreeing with me makes anyone an idiot. Not agreeing with thousands of people from around the world whose entire professional lives revolve around investigating these very issues, though, requires a higher standard of evidence than your steely gaze and good old horse sense. But speaking of standards of evidence: >>>> For example, there was a significant hiatus from warming for the last 1…

I've heard phrases like "the science is settled" on global warming. If you can't write down a VERY detailed model on global warming, then it seems to me pretty arrogant to suggest that in fact "the science is settled." The fact that "Big Tobacco" hid behind that argument doesn't make it wrong! That kind of thinking isn't terribly sound, all kinds of folks use various argumentation strategies to advance various theori…

You don't need a very detailed model to understand anthropogenic global warming, but you would need a detailed model to disprove it.

Once you understand that certain gases in the atmosphere act as a heat reservoir, then the obvious hypothesis is that trapped heat will increase if the amount of those gases increases. Since we know we're increasing some of those gases by burning fossil fuels, we expect warming.

There are only 2 ways to disprove this hypothesis. One would be to disprove the basic science of the greenhouse effect--not likely. The other would be to show that there is another climatic process that counteracts the expected warming. And to do that, you would need to create a more complicated model of the climate.

This is what scientists have done, and they haven't found any effect that fully counteracts the expected warming.

So just to be clear: computer models aren't important because they prove that global warming is happening. Warming is the base assumption. Computer models are important because they have failed to prove anything can stop it.

As for gravity, there is no analytical solution to the 3 body problem. NASA still uses numerical simulation to model the solar system--just like a climate model, but with many orders of magnitude fewer nodes and inputs. They can be so precise because their model is so simple, not because of a fundamental difference in scientific understanding.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#223

I think Adams is very wrong here. I'm sympathetic to his reasoning, since I have followed nutrition closely for the last twenty years, and believe the scientific/media consensus to be much as he described, and even worse than that occasionally, where people who should know better (a PhD teaching a class on nutrition in a community college) claim things that are both factually and obviously wrong ("Low carb diets are…

To anyone who may visit from the future:

I feel bad about this post but can no longer edit it. I believe in the content (that a lot of anti-science beliefs and political positions are due to a combination of self-interest, cowardice, and laziness.) Those are confrontational things to say, but there's a difference between confrontational and being a jerk. It felt briefly good to be a jerk, but that's worn off now.

This lapse is especially annoying since another thing I believe in is civility [1].

Anyway, sorry.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8851206

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#224
post #218
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adams wasn't criticizing science's updating of beliefs on new evidence. He was criticizing the practice of shouting "Hey! We're ultra-certain about this! Very important! You've got to do this!" when the truth was more like, "We kind of have some preliminary evidence this might be bad for you, stay tuned." (And I don't buy the claim that it's just the media overblowing this; why weren't the national academies of scien…

> those cases where you really are deservedly confident (e.g. vaccines) Why are you so confident in vaccines? There are papers saying your right to be confident http://1796kotok.com/pdfs/MMR_withdrawal.pdf ... and rebuttals to those papers. https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/japvaxaut... Should we, as non-scientists automatically discount the rebuttals?

If I look at the second website, I see "wing nut".

That's not someone challenging us to be skeptical and seek out information.

That's "All vaccines bad. Ever."

"Autism, autism, autism."

"Vaccines Did Not Save Us - 2 Centuries of Statistics"

"Autism in Amish Children - 1:10000" - Hmm, this "study" doesn't really consider why the Amish community might be measured differently.

I just see lots of links to studies that were either discredited, or original opining with little objective evidence.

So, automatically? No. But some rebuttals are easier to discount than others - this is one.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exercise on its own doesn't lead to weight loss (in order to burn the necessary calories, you'd have to be exercising all day long ), but it is not uncommon for exercise to suppress appetite, thereby reducing the calories in component of the weight loss equation. Unless of course hunger signals are being ignored, as in the case of unconscious, binge, or comfort eating.

> Exercise on its own doesn't lead to weight loss (in order to burn the necessary calories, you'd have to be exercising all day long) Assuming that you were in perfect calorie balance before, any additional exercise without additional calorie consumption will produce a calorie deficit. This may or may not produce weight loss depending on the exercise profile and a lot of other factors (including, IIRC, what and when…

To be sure, there are many factors. But going by what a lot of people do, they will get a workout of thirty minutes burning maybe 200-300 calories, then reward themselves with a Big Mac at 550 calories, and they probably already had a caloric intake in excess of maintenance (hence why they are exercising to lose weight, and more likely to go for that reward). Heck, even one Snickers[1] bar can counteract that workout. Not saying this is everyone, but it seems to be a common pattern: most people don't realize they need to control their intake, even if they don't reduce it, otherwise all the exercise in the world won't lead to weight loss.

[1] - http://www.calorieking.com/foods/calories-in-chocolate-bar_f...

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#226
post #11

"I think science has earned its lack of credibility with the public. If you kick me in the balls for 20-years, how do you expect me to close my eyes and trust you?" I'm really happy to see that someone else sees this. I've been harping on this for a long time -- that the reason people believe things like anti-vaxx propaganda is not because they are idiots but because scientific authorities, the media, and the medical…

I too am glad this is being realised by some people As an example with vaccines. Mercury containing substances have been phased out (thiomersal). Doctors and news outlets keep pumping information about the bad side of Mercury, etc, etc (which are true for the most part, but maybe exaggerated) But thiomersal is still used in a lot of vaccines. So people get all the negative messages about Mercury but they're supposed…

similar with dental amalgam ( "particularly to boys with common genetic variants.")

"New science challenges old notion that mercury dental amalgam is safe"

Mercury dental amalgam has a long history of ostensibly safe use despite its continuous release of mercury vapor. Two key studies known as the Children’s Amalgam Trials are widely cited as evidence of safety. However, four recent reanalyses of one of these trials now suggest harm, particularly to boys with common genetic variants. These and other studies suggest that susceptibility to mercury toxicity differs among individuals based on multiple genes, not all of which have been identified. These studies further suggest that the levels of exposure to mercury vapor from dental amalgams may be unsafe for certain subpopulations. Moreover, a simple comparison of typical exposures versus regulatory safety standards suggests that many people receive unsafe exposures. Chronic mercury toxicity is especially insidious because symptoms are variable and nonspecific, diagnostic tests are often misunderstood, and treatments are speculative at best. Throughout the world, efforts are underway to phase down or eliminate the use of mercury dental amalgam.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10534-013-9700-9/f...

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Exercise on its own doesn't lead to weight loss (in order to burn the necessary calories, you'd have to be exercising all day long) Assuming that you were in perfect calorie balance before, any additional exercise without additional calorie consumption will produce a calorie deficit. This may or may not produce weight loss depending on the exercise profile and a lot of other factors (including, IIRC, what and when…

To be sure, there are many factors. But going by what a lot of people do, they will get a workout of thirty minutes burning maybe 200-300 calories, then reward themselves with a Big Mac at 550 calories, and they probably already had a caloric intake in excess of maintenance (hence why they are exercising to lose weight, and more likely to go for that reward). Heck, even one Snickers[1] bar can counteract that workout…

> But going by what a lot of people do, they will get a workout of thirty minutes burning maybe 200-300 calories, then reward themselves with a Big Mac at 550 calories,

The effect of exercise plus an additional Big Mac does not reinforce the claim that "exercise on its own doesn't lead to weight loss", because "plus a Big Mac" is not "on its own".

> and they probably already had a caloric intake in excess of maintenance (hence why they are exercising to lose weight, and more likely to go for that reward)

The reason why they are exercising to lose weight is probably that they have a current weight above their desired weight. That doesn't mean that they have a current calorie surplus -- plenty of people seek to lose weight when their current weight is stable but above their desired weight.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard phrases like "the science is settled" on global warming. If you can't write down a VERY detailed model on global warming, then it seems to me pretty arrogant to suggest that in fact "the science is settled." The fact that "Big Tobacco" hid behind that argument doesn't make it wrong! That kind of thinking isn't terribly sound, all kinds of folks use various argumentation strategies to advance various theori…

How about this: let's nobody ever say 'the science is settled' about anything. I'm fine with that. What about instead we use confidence interval logic, and say things like: 'With extremely high confidence we think that carbon emissions from humans are causing climate change.' You might not agree with that statement either, but it gets us over this non-productive pedantry and into an actionable discussion. Let's try i…

Correct, I'm not sure that I do. There's a lot of research into what CO2 is doing, and a lot of people think it MUST be CO2. Where are all the other papers talking about how it can't be (or might be) refrigerants? I saw one paper saying that refrigerant concentrations and increasing temperatures are correlated and that author got excoriated as a "denier".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_refrigerants

You'll notice on that list that there are numbers for the "Net 100 year GWP" which basically means how much more a particular substance could cause heating versus CO2, which has an index of 1.

You'll notice that there are a LOT of compounds on the list and numbers in excess of 100 are common, and in excess of 1000 are too. I've looked up a couple and a couple of them have non-trivial atmospheric concentrations. If something has 1/1000 the concentration of CO2 and a GWP number of 10x CO2 then it would contribute 1% as much. Over a list of about 1000 refrigerants if they all managed to be 1% (this is a stretch I know!) then you could get 10x the warming from refrigerants as from CO2.

I might argue that you've already reached the conclusion that you want to (we gotta do something), and are reasoning backwards from there (carbon emissions are the cause) yourself.

As another example, a lot of people think this project is funded by oil companies and employs professional climate deniers. http://www.surfacestations.org/ Why? Because they have the audacity to try and make sure that the temperatures gathered from weather stations aren't accidentally biased.

I personally think that's MORE important to the analysis than anything else you could do, because if the raw data's no good your conclusions are also no good. Put a bunch of crap detectors in the LHC and you can find whatever particle you want. But physicists don't do that do they?

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard phrases like "the science is settled" on global warming. If you can't write down a VERY detailed model on global warming, then it seems to me pretty arrogant to suggest that in fact "the science is settled." The fact that "Big Tobacco" hid behind that argument doesn't make it wrong! That kind of thinking isn't terribly sound, all kinds of folks use various argumentation strategies to advance various theori…

You don't need a very detailed model to understand anthropogenic global warming, but you would need a detailed model to disprove it. Once you understand that certain gases in the atmosphere act as a heat reservoir, then the obvious hypothesis is that trapped heat will increase if the amount of those gases increases. Since we know we're increasing some of those gases by burning fossil fuels, we expect warming. There a…

The orders of magnitude more nodes and inputs mean that there are orders of magnitude more opportunities for mistakes to be made in the models. It also increases the likelihood of failing to find a confounding variable. The upper bound on system complexity is factorial. I shouldn't need to explain how big that is when you start talking about many orders of magnitude.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#230
post #11

"I think science has earned its lack of credibility with the public. If you kick me in the balls for 20-years, how do you expect me to close my eyes and trust you?" I'm really happy to see that someone else sees this. I've been harping on this for a long time -- that the reason people believe things like anti-vaxx propaganda is not because they are idiots but because scientific authorities, the media, and the medical…

> I personally think it extends way beyond medicine. When the president tells us we're invading Iraq because it has "weapons of mass destruction," and that turns out to be almost entirely hot air, should people be considered stupid for suddenly trusting Alex Jones more than they trust the POTUS?

The scientists were actually pretty clear about that particular bit of data.

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/03/18_blix.shtm...

I think the politicians squarely deserve the blame for that one.

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