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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#221

Post by eli_gottlieb »

halflings wrote: post #192
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

>You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries.

No, the system just needs to be reformed. And I've seen the right reform proposal often enough to be circulating it myself:

* The government can give out N visas in an auction. Firms bid via legally-binding salary offers. The N highest salaries bid get the visas, and the government takes a small additional payroll tax as the only fee.

* The visas adhere to the workers, not the companies.

That will greatly improve the current system for the workers while enabling everyone genuinely in need of high-skilled labor to get it.

Of course, it's worth noting that some degree of so-called "nativism" is just part of the social contract. It's the price we pay for having a society that enforces cooperative coordination among citizens instead of letting everything be run by uncoordinated, law-of-the-jungle free-for-alls.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#222

Post by bioskope »

klochner wrote: post #197
bioskope wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, it does http://www.h1bwage.com/

That's not helpful without comparable salaries for naturalized citizens at the same companies.

You could always compare them using prevailing wage data from

Department of Labor

http://www.flcdatacenter.com/

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#223

Post by vishaldpatel »

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

The reason why companies like doing this is because the H1-B worker is bonded to the company for a long... long time. They can continue to keep underpaying the worker. They can even choose to not follow-through with sponsoring the H1-B worker's green-card application.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#224

Post by ep103 »

halflings wrote: post #192
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

You're entire post is based on a strawman argument. OP didn't say that companies shouldn't hire non-American talent. He said companies should hire non-American talent through traditional immigration proceedings, and that the H1B program lends itself to an exploitative employer-laborer relationship, that ultimately serves to unfairly lower industry pay rates.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#225

Post by foldr »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #154
rayiner wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. has a fixed capacity to absorb immigrants while integrating them into our culture. In many places in the country, immigration is already too much, resulting in insular immigrant communities and tensions between immigrants and everyone else. Those are bad things. The unstated assumption underlying the assertion that "the U.S. has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration" is that culture, and institutions a…

> the U.S. has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration Says who? The permanent ecologically sustainable population of the U.S. is under 200 million. Supporting the current population at the current standard of living involves running down aquifers and top soil and fisheries. We could certainly cram in 600 million at a far lower standard of living. Why should the people favor a reduced lifestyle? Where exactly are…

The US has a very low population density. There's tons of room for new housing.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#226

Post by ep103 »

thrwy10 wrote: post #128
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

It absolutely, positively hurts local labor - naturalized citizens - etc. Without a doubt. I disagree with this statement. I am on an H1 and know several other people who are on H1s and can testify that this is a generalization. There are many ways to end up on an H1, overseas body shops is one avenue and American grad schools are another. Most H1s I know, myself included, graduated from good schools, have worked har…

>I disagree with this statement

Most studies find that you are wrong though. I am sure that you and the people you know are very skilled, and worked hard to get to your current position for that reason. But overall, H1 employees are paid significantly less, and many, many firms specifically refuse to hire local talent in order to fill positions through this program.

If the visa was given to the employee, not the company, then it would be a good program. But your paragraph about how difficult / chancy it can be to switch companies is exactly why it is a failed, exploitative program.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#227

Post by duaneb »

hnnewguy wrote: post #98
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

> There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area, provided you can pay But this is precisely what defines an economic shortage. There's no shortage of anything , if the price offered is right. I wonder if the discrepancy between supply and demand for labour in the Valley has to do with the fact that, unlike most other industries[1], so many companies aren't making money, and hence can't pay, but still demand m…

The shortage of talent in the bay area probably has more to do with the ridiculous concentration of startups there. Maybe if people chose not to live in one of the most expensive areas in the country, with the most competitive labor markets, they wouldn't need to leave. There are oodles upon oodles of skilled CS graduates (yes, in the US!) that aren't moving to the bay area....

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#228

Post by ThomPete »

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

Here are the problems I have with your claims.

1) Of all the companies I know and have worked for I don't know a single company that got H1B for cheap indian labour. They got H1B because thats what they could get for people they wanted. You will find plenty on H1B/O1(my visa) etc. from Europe.

It has nothing to do with exploitation although that of course happens but with these are the easiest (and hardest) visas to get

2) The irony of the tech world is that for the right talent there is always work but finding that right talent is actually pretty hard as it's a multitude of factors that are involved in the right hire.

3) The process of getting H1B is trivial but cumbersome and I have yet to meet any organisation that take people in on H1Bs just because it's cheap labour.

Of course it hurts local labour but not because of the wages, because talent is hard to find.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#229

Post by dgregd »

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

In short term immigrants definitely have negative impact on wages.

However, in long term brain drain helps Silicon Valley to maintain its software capital of the world status.

Nokia mainly depended on local workforce. From Poland it is much closer to Finland than to US. But it was Google US which hired my brightest school mates.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#230

Post by NhanH »

foldr wrote: post #209
NhanH wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't necessary disagree with you on this: if there is a will, there is a way. Regardless of how the immigration law is, even if you make it "No immigration at all", someone will find a way to get in. But that's far and far away from "standard and normalized", which implies something is accessible to standard and more average people. The top .5 or 1% (as in aptitude and willpower) will always find ways to get thing…

> if there is a will, there is a way I'm not so sure about this. I'm a British citizen who's been living in the US for most of the past 7 years (as a student or doing academic jobs), but I can't see any easy way for me to get a job in the tech industry in the US. Perhaps a big company might be willing to sponsor me for an H1B. Apart from that there is just no realistic option that I'm aware of. What other visa could…

I'm working for a startup that's willing to sponsor me for H1B, EB-1 and even O1 (I'm employee #1, so if we're doing any good, we might try to wiggle an O1 somehow, although that's unlikely).

But yes, you'd need a cooperative employer to get a visa of any sort. Most of the big company in tech (ie Google, FB etc..) are all willing to sponsor for H1B, and a lot of startups are too. But as for the questions of "how to get a job there", that's out of my ability to answer.

One thing about immigration law is that just like tax law, it's too convoluted and specific that it almost depend on your exact situation. You might just qualify for some visas just because of the area you're working on (there is something for academic for H1b that's exempt from the cap). You will need to take a very close look at the law, preferably with an experience lawyer that have done this before, and see if anything that can apply to you by the wording of the law (see the O1? It's not just Nobel winner that can get it).

The whole process will takes something like 10-15 years though ... so don't be discouraged. I've been in the US for 4-5 years, and just like you, I can say that I've no idea if I will still be here in 3 years. And I wouldn't expect for things to "settle down" (immigration-wise) for me for another 10 years-ish either.

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