Good grief. If you live in a country that gets cold, learn to insulate your houses better.
Seriously, it is that simple.
/lives in a country where triple windows are standard for all new buildings intended for people.
Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill
221–230 of 276 posts
Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill
#222OK, Paul Wheaton simply doesn't know what he's talking about: "I think that this does produce some savings, but not as much as you might think. If you set your thermostat to a constant 70, the heater works a little at a time throughout the day. If you drop it to 50 at night or in the middle of the day, the heater stops working, but then when the time comes to warm the house again, the heater has to work at full power…
His article on CFLs ( http://www.richsoil.com/CFL-fluorescent-light-bulbs.jsp ) is very cringe-worthy as well. As part of his argument, he references a report he heard of claiming that kids gained 20 IQ points by switching back to incandescent bulbs. Seriously.
It could be true if switching from 60 Hz old-style fluorescent tubes to incandescent. Working with 60 Hz lighting for those of us that can clearly see the flicker is very difficult. It's literally like trying to work under a strobe. Even at higher rates these lights have random flickering from age and other reasons. You may not consciously see flickering, but your brain does.
Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill
#223OK, Paul Wheaton simply doesn't know what he's talking about: "I think that this does produce some savings, but not as much as you might think. If you set your thermostat to a constant 70, the heater works a little at a time throughout the day. If you drop it to 50 at night or in the middle of the day, the heater stops working, but then when the time comes to warm the house again, the heater has to work at full power…
Your theoretical analysis misses an important physical fact: houses are able to exchange air with the outside world, not just heat. As you heat a normal room, it will expel air in order to maintain constant pressure, and similarly, as you allow a room to cool, outside air will enter again to keep the pressure constant. There was an article about this in the American Journal of Physics [1, 2] a couple years back, and…
I have been told by multiple HVAC professionals recently that one should keep their fan on their system always running. They have in fact adopted this practice at our offices and it greatly help with keeping temperatures in consistent from room to room.
The arguments they provided for this were:
[1] Constant air flow creates more consistent temperatures (less highs and lows from interior to exterior or floor to floor.
[2] Allows filtration system to work continuously cleaning the air.
[3] (This is the one I am skeptical of) Starting the fan motor has a large current draw, but leaving it running is very low current on modern high efficiency HVAC systems. Also apparently when the fan starts i the most likely time for fan failure due to high current and torque on the motor. These fan motors are typically not repairable in small commercial and residential units and are quite expensive.
We adopted the fan always on with scheduled temperature adjustment here at our office, it is more comfortable for sure and less dusty. I do not know if it affected energy costs. When I tried this at home it was more comfortable but my electric bill went up by ~$20
Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill
#224OK, Paul Wheaton simply doesn't know what he's talking about: "I think that this does produce some savings, but not as much as you might think. If you set your thermostat to a constant 70, the heater works a little at a time throughout the day. If you drop it to 50 at night or in the middle of the day, the heater stops working, but then when the time comes to warm the house again, the heater has to work at full power…
Funny how these things have been well solved in places with real winters (or summers) for hundreds of years isn't it? Central European buildings used to have walls so thick as to achieve a cave effect, which gave them nearly constant temperature through most of the year. With some minimal-ish heating during winter as a side-effect of cooking with wood to combat the effect of bad windows.
Not sure if your comment was a general statement or aimed at the author of the article (Paul), but for the record Montana has "real" winters. I lived a much similar life in rural Utah for many years, doing many of the same lifestyle optimizations that Paul is engaged in.
I don't know what Paul's house is built of, but mine was solid brick, which probably matched the structure and function of the dense brick/cob building of Europe. The thermal mass was a blessing, as my only form of central heating was wood/coal-burning cylinder stone in the center of the home. In the dead of winter (lows often in the -5 to -15F range at night), a short, intense burn first thing in the morning would charge the house, with minimal burning during daylight hours to maintain a comfortable temp around the core living areas (55-to-65F). Just before bed, load and tweak the stove for a long slow burn. By morning, even on the coldest of nights, the temp never dropped below 45F.
As for his heat-the-person-not-the-room method, that's an obvious, old technique which I applaud Paul for using. For me, a thick down comforter on the bed pre-charged with heat via old-fashioned hot water bottle an hour before (they have nice, newfangled silicone models these days) was all it took. The water was, of course, heated on the wood stove.
During the day, wise clothing (layers, wool, hats) and space heating made the place livable. As did the occasional bout of labor to build up head (an old saying is that chopping wood heats you twice). Yes, there is also some acclimation that takes place. Several years after abandoning the lifestyle, I still cannot tolerate indoor temps much warmer than 70.
Frankly, given that Paul has a rocket mass heater (much, much more efficient than my stove ever was), I am surprised he needs much in the way of spot-heating. Unless his home is of stick/frame construction.
Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
This effect isn't going to be very significant. A constant exchange of air will have a significant effect, but a one-off exchange of 10% of the air will be negligible. The reason for this is that the air has a very small thermal mass compared to the building structure. I've got mote sensors in every room in my house, including the hall. When my kids leave the front door open in winter for a few minutes, as kids tend…
That's not true of all houses and especially not true of cheap apartments, whose residents would benefit the most from saving on heating.
cheap apartments are also poorly air-sealed, which means they're already losing a great deal of their heat through air leaks. An extra one-time 10% turnover won't make a puddle of difference.
In winter in particular, the rate of through-roof air leaks is also greater when temperatures are warmer due to the stack effect. The author is completely wrong on this front - it's far better to let your house cool down and then re-heat.
The only time this isn't true is if you have a two-mechanism heating system such as a heat pump with resistance heat backup, where a large temperature swing invokes the more expensive resistance heater. The author doesn't.
Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill
#226I have often wondered why we don't all sleep in heated pods (bubbles). All of the wasted heat to keep houses warm at night drives me nuts.
All the heat wasted due to bad insulation drives me nuts. Solve the real problem and inconvenient solutions like the one you suggested disappear.
Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill
#227This is where I really prefer the European model[1] - you heat the whole house with hot water. You make hot water with cheap natural gas. If you're lucky enough, you can even use geothermal. Then you use insulation. This especially is something that feels nobody in the US has heard of. At least in California. As a result, your radiators are turned down to 2 out of 10 all day (heating turns off automatically overnight…
Crappy insulation is the norm here in Australia as well, which is more of a problem down south where it gets cold in winter. I used to work with a Scot who highlighted the issue, saying that in a Scottish house, the insulation was good enough that you could basically heat a room with a candle. I once asked him if there were any wooden houses in Scotland, he replied "Yes, we keep our lawnmowers in them".
What is wrong with wooden houses? It is quite possible to apply insulation to those as well as it is to any other house.
Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill
#228OK, Paul Wheaton simply doesn't know what he's talking about: "I think that this does produce some savings, but not as much as you might think. If you set your thermostat to a constant 70, the heater works a little at a time throughout the day. If you drop it to 50 at night or in the middle of the day, the heater stops working, but then when the time comes to warm the house again, the heater has to work at full power…
Funny how these things have been well solved in places with real winters (or summers) for hundreds of years isn't it? Central European buildings used to have walls so thick as to achieve a cave effect, which gave them nearly constant temperature through most of the year. With some minimal-ish heating during winter as a side-effect of cooking with wood to combat the effect of bad windows.
In Austria and parts of Germany, rural houses have huge eaves. Wood is collected and stacked under the eaves providing extra thick walls/insulation during the winter.
Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill
#229I live in Florida. This entire discussion is bizarro world for me. It costs nearly $400 a month to keep my house at 74deg in the summer.
A few ideas: 1. Keep it at 80 for a couple of weeks, you'll get habituated quickly enough and will suffer less outside as a byproduct. 2. Use the AC only in the room you are actually in and close the door. 3. Unless it's very very very warm outside, and once you got used to higher temperatures a couple open windows or a simple fan will do wonders. Source: I live in Rome, I have AC but I only turn it on when it's over…
Everyone is a bit different. If it's over 76 degrees in my house, I am mentally more sluggish, and have a very hard time sleeping. I don't mind sweating and being hot during the day, but at night I just can't sleep well. Also my computer gear has a tendency to overheat when things get much over 80 in the house at large (home office runs hotter).
Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill
#230Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your theoretical analysis misses an important physical fact: houses are able to exchange air with the outside world, not just heat. As you heat a normal room, it will expel air in order to maintain constant pressure, and similarly, as you allow a room to cool, outside air will enter again to keep the pressure constant. There was an article about this in the American Journal of Physics [1, 2] a couple years back, and…
I have been told by multiple HVAC professionals recently that one should keep their fan on their system always running. They have in fact adopted this practice at our offices and it greatly help with keeping temperatures in consistent from room to room. The arguments they provided for this were: [1] Constant air flow creates more consistent temperatures (less highs and lows from interior to exterior or floor to floor…
[3] is bunk. Those blower motors are immense; if they didn't use a lot of energy as they ran they would be a lot smaller.
In my limited experience the run/start capacitors fail more often than the motor itself.