No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry • Hacker News Board

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#221

Post by byerley » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 6:27 PM UTC

Fomite wrote: post #214

byerley wrote: post #197

Why can't we get any sensible articles about this problem? Do they just not get any attention on aggregation sites? Call this "victim blaming" if you want, but I'm going to critique the article because it's bad. I'm not commenting on any of the surrounding events because, honestly, claiming you've been harassed in the past doesn't excuse bad journalism - She starts the article by alienating her intended audience: Lea…

I was the exact opposite of "alienated" by the trigger warning. It's a useful tool for people who have to wade through this every day to know if this is going to be viscerally upsetting, or just musings on a theme without the clear content. Also, you want her to show examples, but if she leads with a strong one, she's writing "extremist hysteria"?

> I was the exact opposite of "alienated" by the trigger warning.

I don't doubt that it's a useful warning for some people, but that lingo in particular is generally used by people already sensitive to gender issues. It's also commonly used by extremists so outsiders will have trouble telling the difference immediately. A more traditional content warning would presumably have sufficed.

> Also, you want her to show examples, but if she leads with a strong one, she's writing "extremist hysteria"?

No, I don't want examples. I want trends and statistics. At the very least the article needs a proper introduction.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#222

Post by im3w1l » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 6:29 PM UTC

My view of how these things happen: Game studio is developing a game revolving around Battle of Nanking. Two teams compete on how many civilians they can rape and kill in five minutes.

Presumtive buyers are drooling with excitement over this great game.

A woman joins the company and start arguing that the game is bad for our youth. It promotes rape culture. The game should instead revolve around a secret romance between two homosexuals in the army.

The people at the studio start thinking that, you know maybe she is sort of right, and post that on their blog.

Those who have been longing for the game get extremely upset. They feel that an outsider is destroying "their" game.

The craziest few of them threaten the woman.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#223

Post by Fomite » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 6:31 PM UTC

thinkpad20 wrote: post #163

I'm a male in the software industry, and I never really know what to make of these sorts of articles. It's terrible that someone should have to go through this. The anonymity of the internet is a great and terrible thing -- some people really get off on being horrible to people, and unfortunately when that person is a male, and they know they're talking to a woman, the low-hanging fruit is base sexism. But what is su…

What should you do?

- Think about how you act around the women in your life, the women you interact with as public figures, your female coworkers, etc. Critically self-examine. Do you treat them like fully formed human beings? When someone asks you to name the "top X in your field" do you automatically always think of a man? Things like that. The answers can end up entirely being "Yes, I do treat women like human beings" - no one was ever harmed by a little self-reflection.

- Similarly, think about that behavior in others. Stand up when someone says something sexist - toe-curling awful, or just subtle. Take your female coworkers at their word when they talk about their experiences.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#224

Post by Fomite » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 6:33 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #166

Jemaclus wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? It's not about whether you're cool with it -- it's about whether everyone is cool with it. Just because you like dick jokes doesn't mean that your female coworkers (or any of them, really) are comfortable with it. Since you can't speak for everyone, and some people can't speak up for themselves without making themselves targets, then it's your responsibility as a member of the team t…

I disagree - maybe because I only perceive speech as "offensive" if it's directly insulting to a targeted person - which impersonal jokes (whether "dick jokes" or any other jokes) are not. In any case, I would rather err on the side of freedom, allow most communications (except insults, secrets, and whatever is illegal, such as hate speech), and rely on people to proactively say they are uncomfortable with something.…

Have you ever asked the people who might be targeted by those jokes (women, minorities, etc.) if they feel comfortable with them?

Keep in mind a joke about someone "like you" is easy to read as a comment about you.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#225

Post by Fomite » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 6:36 PM UTC

byerley wrote: post #221

Fomite wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was the exact opposite of "alienated" by the trigger warning. It's a useful tool for people who have to wade through this every day to know if this is going to be viscerally upsetting, or just musings on a theme without the clear content. Also, you want her to show examples, but if she leads with a strong one, she's writing "extremist hysteria"?

> I was the exact opposite of "alienated" by the trigger warning. I don't doubt that it's a useful warning for some people, but that lingo in particular is generally used by people already sensitive to gender issues. It's also commonly used by extremists so outsiders will have trouble telling the difference immediately. A more traditional content warning would presumably have sufficed. > Also, you want her to show ex…

Will you be funding the study to collect those trends and statistics?

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#226

Post by wutbrodo » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 6:42 PM UTC

tonypace wrote: post #193

Torgo wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see an analysis on a site by site basis of what they consider trolls and what they consider highly-rated comments. I suspect however it would be found it would align more closely around in-group/out-group than content.

It seems likely, but the whole point of censoring extreme comments is to make those commenters an out group. Comment filtering would have edge cases, just like spam and porn filtering does. Do the dangers outweigh the value of pushing people who speak like this into an out group?

I don't know how you interpreted Torgo's comment as worrying that inappropriate/extreme comments would be treated as an out-group. He/she said that he/she suspects that human-rating of comments would be based more on their (dis)agreement with the popular view (particularly on controversial topics) as opposed to the extremeness/inappropriateness of the content. There's a massive difference between a comment being 100% civil in their dissent, as in "I'm not convinced that you can attribute those causes to that effect, given XYZ" and "DIE YOU ASSHOLE YOU'RE WRONG I'LL KILL YOU". Torgo's suspicion is that filtering would be done based on disagreement vs objectively offensive/uncivil content.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#227

Post by byerley » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 6:45 PM UTC

Fomite wrote: post #225

byerley wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was the exact opposite of "alienated" by the trigger warning. I don't doubt that it's a useful warning for some people, but that lingo in particular is generally used by people already sensitive to gender issues. It's also commonly used by extremists so outsiders will have trouble telling the difference immediately. A more traditional content warning would presumably have sufficed. > Also, you want her to show ex…

Will you be funding the study to collect those trends and statistics?

I'm pretty sure I already am (indirectly obviously since I'm a poor scientist). I pay taxes, the government funds universities and research. As far as I know, there's no significant gender gap in psychology/sociology/ect. that would cause discrimination against such studies.

I don't pretend to be versed in either field, but I see plenty of related results on google scholar in reputable journals.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#228

Post by asuffield » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 6:50 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #100

> We live in a society that’s sexist in ways it doesn’t understand. One of the consequences is that men are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women. I think it threatens them in a very primal way, and male privilege makes them feel free to lash out. I don't mean to "Not all men" this, but I wish we would stop treating behavior like this as a normal part of the male psyche. It's not. It's seriously disturbed.…

I have to agree with most of this. I see these articles from time to time, and I know the facts behind them are real enough, but my immediate reaction is always the same: "I don't know any people who act this way, and I wouldn't stand for it if I ever saw something like this, but I have never seen it happen, so where the hell is this coming from?"

There must be some people with serious issues out there to generate things like this. Those people are not normal and this behaviour is not acceptable.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#229

Post by gclaramunt » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 6:51 PM UTC

byerley wrote: post #197

Why can't we get any sensible articles about this problem? Do they just not get any attention on aggregation sites? Call this "victim blaming" if you want, but I'm going to critique the article because it's bad. I'm not commenting on any of the surrounding events because, honestly, claiming you've been harassed in the past doesn't excuse bad journalism - She starts the article by alienating her intended audience: Lea…

Even if they're just outliers, they deserve the right to let their situation be known. You're pretty close to "you didn't communicate according to my standards, so I'm going to ignore you". How do you know your complaints about style aren't an excuse to avoid confronting the problem? Not saying you are, but for my part, even if they do it imperfectly, I will listen, I don't want my kids to grow up in world where this kind of things gets ignored

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#230

Post by wutbrodo » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 6:53 PM UTC

Jemaclus wrote: post #81

hnnewguy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think, "Damn, she's hot." And then I hate myself for making that my first thought It's pretty much my first thought when I see any woman (and some men). I can't help it, it's the product of us being animals. Who cares. I don't feel guilty, and certainly don't hate myself for it. > I hope I don't have a daughter. Oh brother...

> Oh brother... Ha. I don't mean that I don't want a daughter... It's just that every time I think about having a daughter, I think about these issues, and it scares the shit out of me. Raising a son, I wouldn't have to worry that much about this stuff, and I could focus on helping him help make the world a better place, instead of worrying about whether my daughter is gonna get raped because she wore short shorts to…

> Raising a son, I wouldn't have to worry that much about this stuff, and I could focus on helping him help make the world a better place, instead of worrying about whether my daughter is gonna get raped because she wore short shorts today.

I understand the comment you made (downthread) about parents being perhaps irrationally concerned about low-probability dangers to their kids, and totally understand: what I don't understand is why you'd be more afraid of your daughter being raped than your son. According to CDC data[1], the 12-month incidence of rape victimization for men is basically the same as for women. Given that the data doesn't support it, is it perhaps possible that your lopsided fear of rape is rooted in more sexism? A la, "Women are frail creatures that must be protected from all the dangers of the world", but "Men are independent, powerful shapers of their fate". I feel like an attitude like that is more of a concern to your hypothetical future daughter than any of the other concerns you've raised.

[1] pp 18-19: 12-month incidence of penetrative rape is 1.1% of women and the data is too noisy for men; non-penetrative rape is 5.3% for men and 5.6% for women.