Demonstration at Home of Google Developer. Google Bus Blocked in Berkeley • Hacker News Board

Re: Demonstration at Home of Google Developer. Google Bus Blocked in Berkeley

#221

Post by aaronem » Wed, Jan 22, 2014, 5:49 PM UTC

baconner wrote: post #190

tomp wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the protest isn't to destroy a person's life, the point of the protest is to (1) make Google's employees reluctant to continue being Google's employees and as a result (2) make Google rethink their official and unofficial policies, in order to (3) make the world a better place. AFAIK, they haven't really hurt anybody (this time). They are just pressing the points that (they think will) hurt the most.

They haven't really hurt anybody physically this time would be a more accurate way to put it. Its hard to imagine that he and his family aren't going to be up late nights worrying about what comes next. I'm truly stunned to see folks on hn defending this behavior.

I wish I were. They agree with the protesters, don't you see? And, because they feel themselves to be on the "right side of history", whatever that means, they are utterly innocent of fear that they should ever themselves awaken to find a shouting mob on their doorstep.

Of course, they're also utterly ignorant of history, or they'd know what happens, in a revolution, to people who consider themselves on the "right side of history", but are found insufficiently so by those to whom all weapons are friends. Little Dantons, all of them! -- and I'd be perfectly sanguine about the sanguinary fate to which they'd unknowingly consign themselves, did it not take such enormities to slake the thirst of the mob; one of the Terror's distinguishing characteristics, after all, is that it is always so very hard to steer.

Re: Demonstration at Home of Google Developer. Google Bus Blocked in Berkeley

#222

Post by wonderzombie » Wed, Jan 22, 2014, 5:58 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #191

mgunes wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there aren't "people"; there is "a person", me. Just one person. Everyone else is speculating on how the poor little "Googler"'s life is destroyed by a naive peaceful protest, derailing the issue with anti-left wing jokes, suggesting that "Googlers" carry weapons, and so on. HN at its best: when its ideological toe is stepped on. popcorn

I'm a marxist - certainly not aligned with any right wing libertarians. But right from the headline that article disgusts me. Unless they have concrete proof that this specific guy have done something particularly bad (and they've not presented any), calling him out by name and with photos of his home is way over the line to begin with. Not only is it creepy, it is deeply counterproductive and will only serve to alie…

I appreciate the perspective of a person who identifies as Marxist.

I'm not a Marxist but I've been struggling to articulate why I believe this sort of protesting is counterproductive. For one thing, their complaints are not actionable-- they're co-opting a grab-bag of leftist, luddite terminology and the end result rounds down to a primal scream. I don't live in SF, but it seems to me that the horse is out of the barn: SF has changed irrevocably and it will never go back to what it was. I suspect they know this on some level.

A large subset of tech workers have libertarian leanings, to be sure, but there's a strong leftist/liberal bent, as well. More than a lot of other well-off folks, I'd expect tech workers to be allies. Regardless, though, they're/we're not going to consider ourselves evil just because someone says so. The incentives are simple and compelling: we get paid well for doing work we ostensibly enjoy. They want "techies" to go away because we're ruining everything but the only way to make that work at any scale is highly, highly questionable-- shit like violence and/or intimidation, in other words.

I'm sympathetic to the protesters' feeling of disenfranchisement, but it's increasingly difficult for me to remain sympathetic. The top tier tech companies can't undo the last few decades of Bay Area history. Gentrification is not a solved problem, but density seems to be one way to go. That involves compromise. My sense is that these folks feel entitled enough to claim ownership over SF such that I'd expect a rather cool response to compromise.

Anyway, thanks for speaking up.

Re: Demonstration at Home of Google Developer. Google Bus Blocked in Berkeley

#223

Post by mindcrime » Wed, Jan 22, 2014, 6:00 PM UTC

Man, everytime I read more about this, I lose a little more of my sympathy for these protesters. They sound more and more like a bunch of whack nut-jobs in every article.

I don't disagree that they have some valid concerns, but they aren't doing themselves any favors with this over-the-top stuff. In fact, I suspect they are unintentionally setting themselves up as "the bad guys" in this story.

I can't help but think the protesters should take a long, hard look at who their leadership is, and find somebody new.

Re: Demonstration at Home of Google Developer. Google Bus Blocked in Berkeley

#224

Post by droopybuns » Wed, Jan 22, 2014, 6:02 PM UTC

jasonkester wrote: post #51

Absolutely horrifying. More so because there are actually people here in this thread defending the crazy person who's trying to destroy somebody's life because they don't like the company he works for.

Right. It is important to cast this protestor out rather than try to understand their perspective. Thats the kind of response that has no consequences.

No defense is possible for the truly evil and nonviolent behavior of that sinister protestor.

Re: Demonstration at Home of Google Developer. Google Bus Blocked in Berkeley

#225

Post by DanBC » Wed, Jan 22, 2014, 6:03 PM UTC

ericcumbee wrote: post #129

DanBC wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recommending gun ownership in response to non-violent protest seems sub-optimal. Perhaps a gun is a useful tool in that kind of situation, but surely there's a bunch of other conflict de-escalation stuff that can be learnt first.

you assume that the gun is the first option, when in fact its a last resort.

But I see recommendations for guns all the time. I don't see recommendations for de-escalation techniques.

Perhaps this is something that gun companies could do to promote their responsible gun carry image? They could provide training programmes on conflict managemen and de-escalalation along with safe gun use?

Re: Demonstration at Home of Google Developer. Google Bus Blocked in Berkeley

#226

Post by mindcrime » Wed, Jan 22, 2014, 6:03 PM UTC

mgunes wrote: post #91

jasonkester wrote: post #51

Absolutely horrifying. More so because there are actually people here in this thread defending the crazy person who's trying to destroy somebody's life because they don't like the company he works for.

No, there aren't "people"; there is "a person", me. Just one person. Everyone else is speculating on how the poor little "Googler"'s life is destroyed by a naive peaceful protest, derailing the issue with anti-left wing jokes, suggesting that "Googlers" carry weapons, and so on. HN at its best: when its ideological toe is stepped on. popcorn

Why shouldn't googlers carry weapons? Everyone has a right to self-defense, and certain recent actions at least hint that googlers may be at an increased risk of being attacked. Choosing to carry a weapon is just being prudent.

Re: Demonstration at Home of Google Developer. Google Bus Blocked in Berkeley

#227

Post by cromwellian » Wed, Jan 22, 2014, 6:04 PM UTC

The real problems in San Francisco and elsewhere, the problems that are hurting and displacing people, aren't caused by self-driving cars or software to make construction more efficient, and the people experiencing pain will not be made better by casting out all of the professionals, many of whom politically side with progressive causes. (And isn't doing home composting and growing your own garden what Berkeley protesters would demand people do?) The local governments need to figure out ways to encourage affordable housing.

Yes, DARPA funds long range research which can be used for military purposes. That includes the Internet, which was DARPA funded. But all technological research has dual use. The Internet could have been used as a command-and-control network for the military during war, but it is also used to distribute political dissent.

The same research into chemicals and biology that allow life saving medicines to be created to save children around the world can also be used to make chemical and biological weapons. Fertilizer grows food, it also makes bombs.

Google X's Car project doesn't seem to have anything to do with making weapons for the DoD. This is pure guilt-by-tenuous-association. Many college campuses also enter these DARPA challenges, where's the protests?

The purpose of the car is to solve a very real social problem: hundreds of thousands of people are killed in auto accidents around the world every year and millions more are seriously injured needing to go to the emergency room. This is an enormous social cost which could be used to fund better housing, or education, but instead is going to treat injuries and repair and replace damaged vehicles. There is no evidence of a Google contract with DoD for Google Car technology for weapons.

What I find really disturbing is the level dehumanization. The protest is peaceful now, but the first step to encouraging violence against someone is to describe them in dehumanizing terms (a robot). When gun-advocates like Sarah Palin start using rhetorical devices that dehumanizes opponents and paints literal gun targets on them, we are not surprised turning up the rhetorical temperature leads to violent confrontation, the behavior shouldn't be tolerated or defended on the other side.

Re: Demonstration at Home of Google Developer. Google Bus Blocked in Berkeley

#228

Post by wonderzombie » Wed, Jan 22, 2014, 6:05 PM UTC

kenrikm wrote: post #216

vidarh wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a marxist - certainly not aligned with any right wing libertarians. But right from the headline that article disgusts me. Unless they have concrete proof that this specific guy have done something particularly bad (and they've not presented any), calling him out by name and with photos of his home is way over the line to begin with. Not only is it creepy, it is deeply counterproductive and will only serve to alie…

My wife is from Cuba, I've witnessed first hand what "applied" marxism creates, misery and strife. Let alone places like North Korea etc.. Honest question, how do you cope with the reality vs the ideal?

Wait, do you actually think DPRK is actually communist? It reads far more like an autocracy to me.

On the other hand, look at the rest of the industrialized world. Almost every industrialized nation has socialized medicine, social insurance/welfare, etc. You're trying to characterize it as a binary when it's a lot more like capitalism in that there's a lot of latitude.

Re: Demonstration at Home of Google Developer. Google Bus Blocked in Berkeley

#229

Post by keithpeter » Wed, Jan 22, 2014, 6:05 PM UTC

scotth wrote: post #135

keithpeter wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had to cross picket lines (not outside my house). Not fun.

What happened?

Nothing dramatic, I was working at a different company within the compound and not involved at all with the dispute. Just... nerve wracking a bit (confined road in, rows of people abiding by the law but just looking you straight in the eye)

Re: Demonstration at Home of Google Developer. Google Bus Blocked in Berkeley

#230

Post by brohee » Wed, Jan 22, 2014, 6:12 PM UTC

calibraxis wrote: post #40

keidian wrote: post #6

Is this serious or supposed to be satire or something? Cause it reads like something a deranged person would write to me... Making comments about how Google employees automatically bring police, "All of Google's employees should be prevented from getting to work", etc. Yeah they do bring police.. to deal with nutjobs that decide to randomly show up at their houses and stop them from working, stop a bus in the middle…

Just read the PDF, and it's an interesting and reasonable perspective on tech. Probably sounds blasphemous to an audience excited about investments/acquisitions of $15M, $30M and $1.54 billion (from HN's current front page), but I think techies are due for a reasonable backlash for their usual servility to power, by people concerned about their society.

About as reasonable as Kaczynski's Manifesto.