Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh come on . > These events include Mr. Mukerjee becoming further agitated and aggressive after testing positive for explosives, as well as him repeatedly reaching for his not-yet-manually-searched bag. > However,multiple statements by TSA personnel reference Mr. Mukerjee repeatedly grabbing for his bag after he was told not to touch it. > While false positives are not unusual for ETD, it is unusual a person and thei…
> it is unusual a person and their items could fail so many times using different testing equipment. So maybe it's finding something true. BFD. You look in the bag, verify there's no explosive there, and let him through. Maybe the bag had fireworks in or near it at some point. Or magician's supplies. Or a chemistry set. Or any number of other things. There are a dozens reasons why a bag might actually have been near…
Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No
221–228 of 228 posts
Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There are some pretty goddamn good reasons why the bag of a dude who tests positive for explosives has to be cleared before he's given it and allowed to run around an airport full of people. If so, there are some pretty good reason why, if they consider that threat even remotely real, they should clear the area. A good indication that the actual terrorist threat is absolutely vanishingly small: If there were lots o…
I don't know how much faith I'd put into your hypothetical. I'm not implying the terrorist threat is large – it's really, super small. But just because they haven't done THAT yet, doesn't mean they won't. So far, in the US, what they've done is sneak explosives onto planes.
Overall, bombs and shoot-outs not related to planes at all has been responsible for the vast majority of the most lethal terrorist attacks in the US apart from 9/11, both if you look at muslim terrorists separately, and other attacks in recent history.
Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
One of the things you get when you have a horde of untrained, uptight civilians dressed in uniforms is an incredibly unprofessional behaviour from someone who is supposed to do law enforcement. The agents did several things that escalated the whole deal, things which a cadet would have immediately understood. To quote just a few: > These events include Mr. Mukerjee becoming further agitated and aggressive after testi…
> We will have to remove all items in another room, Searching the bag in another room has too much abuse potential. If travelers let bags out of their sight even for a few minutes the TSA could easily steal or break anything of value in there with no accountability. So the existing procedures mostly don't allow that - searching has to take place in the presence of the passenger.
That's actually the recommended policy in most cases (not only TSA), for several reasons. One of them is the one you stated; another one is that suspicions related to a particular item can be cleared more quickly by just asking the owner, and if you do it right, you can also get various hints about anything illegal (e.g. the guy is ok until you find the hidden pocket).
There's only one case I know of where searching without the owner's presence would be legitimate -- if the exact testing equipment and procedure must not be divulged, for fear it might reveal vulnerability. This is a form of security by obscurity though, and a sane system shouldn't need that. I'm sure this isn't the TSA's case, but there are cases where it can be an option -- for instance, in an underfunded law-enforcement system that can't afford sufficiently broad testing equipment. In their case, introducing further delay in the obsolescence of their equipment probably ought to be understood. This comes in various other incarnations -- e.g. if you suspect the bag may contain dangerous substances, you typically want to search it in a special, sealed room.
Nonetheless, if searching is done in another room, that's always done according to a procedure that ensures accountability: you ask the owner to tell you what's inside, make a list of everything there, and ask him about the working condition of every gizmo inside. The proper way to do it is with a constructive attitude -- if the bag is stuffed with various items, you assist the owner by taking the items one by one. You don't let him touch them, in case he might sneak up that bag of TNT when you aren't looking, but you help the guy -- if he's got thirty gizmos inside, it's only natural he won't remember them all. But in this case, the search is then conducted by someone else (in order to avoid subjectivity issues -- e.g. the dude has a vintage handheld radio from his grandfather, it's filled with explosive but when you do the search, you test it superficially because it's a vintage radio, what the hell...)
Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No
#224Earlier quoted context omitted.
One of the things you get when you have a horde of untrained, uptight civilians dressed in uniforms is an incredibly unprofessional behaviour from someone who is supposed to do law enforcement. The agents did several things that escalated the whole deal, things which a cadet would have immediately understood. To quote just a few: > These events include Mr. Mukerjee becoming further agitated and aggressive after testi…
I believe that current TSA policy is to allow the traveler to be able to see their belongings at all times, and if they search it search it in front of the traveler. From what I can tell this has even been emphasized lately, now when I opt out at SFO they have me bin my stuff and wait until they are ready to pat me down before running it through the x-ray. Once it has been x-rayed they put my belongings where I can s…
When I took the course I mentioned in my post above, the explanation was along these lines: when you want to check someone who carries a bag, you need to remember that he has certain expectations about the safety of his belongings. If you're in a public place, it's reasonable that you never remove the belongings without assuring the owner that they are safe and well-guarded. So when you stop a gang of half-drunk teenagers on the street, you don't ask them to drop their backpacks on the sidewalk and then go ten yards further to search them. You ask them to leave the backpacks in a single place, right near them, and while your colleague searches the backpacks, you keep an eye on the dudes.
That's the common-sense thing to do: no one would let their bags two meters away from them in an airport, even if they kept a constant eye on them. You can't just expect someone to be okay with leaving them god knows where.
If you ask people to put their belongings away in a designated area, the correct thing to do is to have that area placed well away from any passers by and a guard near it. That way, you can tell the owner something along the lines of "Please put your bag in that bin over there; don't worry about it, it won't be stolen -- that man staying guard there isn't leaving, he's there to make sure you get it back just as you left it. We need to ask you a few questions, and then we may have to search your bag. we'll search it in front of you to make sure no one steals or breaks anything, and if all checks out okay, you're free to go. Any questions before we start?"
As our instructor mentioned it, it's really important -- especially in places like airports, concert arenas and whatever -- where you might expect one terrorist every two years and ten thousand disoriented folks with a scare of flight who triggered the bomb detector with their cheap after-shave every day -- to treat people without hostility, with an attitude of collaboration, not suspicion. Very few travelers are at fault for the US' foreign policy (and those that are probably don't go through the whole TSA hell), so it's not their fault that some guys from the Middle East want to blow up their planes. In places like these, you want to treat people so that they can say "yeah, I know this is inconvenient, but the guy is only doing his job", and because they are already under a lot of stress, you want to make sure you don't heighten their fear.
Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not just the high false positive rate, it's the combination of a high false positive rate with a really low base rate. (If there were a lot more terrorists, the test might be worth doing!) The combination of those two facts means that getting a hit on explosives gives you almost no increase in information . Any look at plausible numbers makes the test nearly useless at finding explosives, though it's still at le…
I am extremely, bitterly familiar with the base rate fallacy (I was an intrusion detection researcher, and spend 4+ years working on statistical anomaly detection the Internet backbone). The fallacy doesn't make a value judgement. It points out something counterintuitive about the accuracy of a filter or test. That thing is important, but not dispositive. If the base rate is low and the false positive rate is percent…
(Yes, one could postulate really stupid terrorists who somehow don't realize they'll get caught going through security, but terrorists who are that stupid are likely to have their plans fail without the TSA's help. See also: the shoe bomber.)
Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it is unusual a person and their items could fail so many times using different testing equipment. So maybe it's finding something true. BFD. You look in the bag, verify there's no explosive there, and let him through. Maybe the bag had fireworks in or near it at some point. Or magician's supplies. Or a chemistry set. Or any number of other things. There are a dozens reasons why a bag might actually have been near…
Or it could be somewhere hidden in the bag, in a lining somewhere, etc. Or it could be somewhere else on his person, having left traces on the bag after coming in contact with it.
The sad truth is that the terrorists here are us. The primary reason nobody has blown up a plane recently in the US is that nobody is TRYING to blow up a plane in the US. If somebody were seriously trying, they'd have done it already.
Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No
#227Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am extremely, bitterly familiar with the base rate fallacy (I was an intrusion detection researcher, and spend 4+ years working on statistical anomaly detection the Internet backbone). The fallacy doesn't make a value judgement. It points out something counterintuitive about the accuracy of a filter or test. That thing is important, but not dispositive. If the base rate is low and the false positive rate is percent…
It's not untenable in the sense that it's possible to get that amount of work done, but that doesn't make it worth doing. TSA is fundamentally trying to solve an unsolvable problem. No matter how many resources they throw at it, there will always be ways to evade their checks. A smart terrorist will find a way to get through undetected, find a way to avoid the check entirely (say, by bribing a TSA employee or airport…
Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No
#228My take is that this is a facile analysis that harms the credibility of its source; I am less likely to take this person seriously in the future after reading this.
I appreciate that they took the time to do actual "reporting" by contacting officials involved with the story.
However, a couple things worth keeping in mind as you read it:
* We can reasonably be convinced that Mukerjee wasn't hiding anything. The concern evinced by TSA, NY PAPD, and JetBlue was that Mukerjee was a danger to the flight he was trying to board. We know he wasn't! This article routinely supplies innuendo about Mukerjee's evasiveness during screening. But we know he had nothing to be evasive about, and thus that the signals TSA picked up on were false; the article's framing puts the onus for that on Mukerjee, incorrectly.
* TSA's rationale for detaining Mukerjee doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. The reasoning supplied by this article could be applied just as effectively to an 85 year old grandmother or a 10 year old boy. It's not falsifiable and not relevant to what happened.
* The analysis glosses over the pivotal moment in the story. The problem wasn't that Mukerjee was denied water or questioned by people that don't know anything about the world's third largest religion. The problem happened when TSA refused to escort Mukerjee, with his carryon, out of the airport, as they are required to do when a passenger refuses screening. Mukerjee's own account has him trying to leave, but put in a position where doing so would cost him his bag and computer. That's the problem here.
There's a worthwhile case to be made for skepticism about some elements of Mukerjee's story. I agree with the article that it seems unlikely for PAPD to have searched his house. It's interesting that Mukerjee claims he was interviewed by an FBI agent when no record seems to have existed of that. I buy the analysis that says that a coherent rebuttal to Mukerjee's story could not easily have self-assembled from 3 different security agencies in the span of a couple days.
Unfortunately, it's hard to take skepticism seriously when it's framed in an article that seems hellbent on taking TSA's claims at face value.