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I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

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Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#221

Post by dools »

danjayh wrote: post #164
dools wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another advantage to paying full fees (and criticism of the HECS system) is that the score required to get into most courses is lower for full fee paying students. This is simply because there is less competition for those places but it does essentially mean that stupid rich kids can get into uni ahead of poor kids who are less stupid. And not only do we have HECS, but we have Youth Allowance which gives you money wh…

So you freely admit that most students defraud the system, yet you still consider it the case that it "works out pretty well"?

Judging by how freakin sweet living in Australia is I'd say it's working pretty well.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#222

Post by James_Duval »

gems wrote: post #210
jinfiesto wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. Math is one of the most easily self teachable subjects. The field of study is objects of mind (unless you're a platonist.) Literally no materials required except pen/paper, a brain and maybe a straightedge and compass. The point of math is not to do endless worked exercises. It's to understand mathematical objects and prove interesting things about them. You can generate unlimited problems for yourself by i…

Basically nothing you said actually made a case against anything I said, or for the thesis that it is easy to self teach. Just stating this for the record.

Could you explain briefly why this is the case? I don't understand.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#223

Post by [deleted] »

stevewilhelm wrote: post #53
HarryHirsch wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say with great conviction that EE is the way to go, but with the world being what is is, who can predict the future these days? In the early 2000s a degree in chemistry was considered a safe bet, especially with a biochemistry PhD tacked on. Then there was the 2008 recession, the great round of layoffs at the major pharmcos, combined with the offshoring of early discovery. If anyone says they feel cheated I'm not…

The US Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics publishes an Occupational Outlook Handbook. [1] It includes projected number of new jobs this decade and projected growth rate per career. [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/

[deleted]

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#224

Post by gdsimoes »

graycat wrote: post #155

Point 1: Likely what you want to learn you can learn well without going back to school. Indeed, at a high end research university, it is in effect or explicitly assumed that you can teach yourself. If you are in software, then likely you are heavily self-taught. Well, being self-taught in nearly all parts of academic engineering is easier than in practical software if only because in nearly all of academic engineerin…

"in nearly all of academic engineering the learning materials are much, much better written."

I'm a math major and recently I started studying CS and I couldn't agree more!

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#225

Post by mikevm »

stiff wrote: post #220
gems wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unrealistic because I really think you need the social aspect of it: collaboration and criticism. I didn't say you can't learn something on your own sometimes. Also lots of people have convinced themselves of lots of silly things. You can probably find dozens of papers from people with bachelors in math (or no degree) claiming they have solved P=NP. A lot of these turn out to be completely bogus, but the authors…

What are you exactly claiming then, what would it mean that mathematics self-study is "unrealistic"? There is certainly a danger in not seeking external validation of your work (or denying it), and being at a university is very nice for getting that. But with some motivation I think you can get the knowledge equivalent of an undergraduate degree in mathematics by self-studying in maybe twice the time it would take at…

Having an undergrad CS degree is enough to self-study math, I believe. But having no formal education in the sciences/maths is not (unless you are a genius).

For me, merely pushing myself through a theoretical CS curriculum made me see (and write) hundreds of proofs, hear them explained by professors, and see non-trivial exercises solved during recitations. I don't think you can get the same kind of experience by just reading a textbook, even if it does offer full solutions to problems.

Maybe when there will be full video lectures for both lectures and recitations for the basic math (or theoretical CS) curriculum you could self-study by watching those and solving problem sets. Right now, the math courses offered by Coursera don't seem to match college level, and their platform doesn't really work for proof-based courses like Analysis, Linear Algebra (not the applied kind), etc...

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#226

Post by stiff »

mikevm wrote: post #225
stiff wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you exactly claiming then, what would it mean that mathematics self-study is "unrealistic"? There is certainly a danger in not seeking external validation of your work (or denying it), and being at a university is very nice for getting that. But with some motivation I think you can get the knowledge equivalent of an undergraduate degree in mathematics by self-studying in maybe twice the time it would take at…

Having an undergrad CS degree is enough to self-study math, I believe. But having no formal education in the sciences/maths is not (unless you are a genius). For me, merely pushing myself through a theoretical CS curriculum made me see (and write) hundreds of proofs, hear them explained by professors, and see non-trivial exercises solved during recitations. I don't think you can get the same kind of experience by jus…

I learnt only a bit of discrete math in my CS undergraduate degree, I had calculus and linear algebra but barely passed it by memorizing how to solve concrete problems and by having merciful professors - I was already working full time and had 4 or 5 courses going on, I just didn't manage to find enough time to study properly. If you have bigger gaps in your math knowledge and can't go to an university you just have to start at a lower level, there is a wide selection of "intro to higher mathematics" books meant for people like that, and if that level is still too high you might need to review high school math, e.g. Serge Lang has a good "Basic Mathematics" review book, or you can use Khan Academy videos etc. I myself had to review a lot of high school math when I was starting.

MIT OCW has excellent courses for discrete math, calculus and linear algebra and in some cases videos from the recitations are included.

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-01sc-single-variab...

I also stressed a few times already I don't think it is "the same kind of experience". But as long as you make an effort you will make progress and not everyone can manage to fit a university degree in their schedule.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#227

Post by bane »

hga wrote: post #163
bane wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno then. It's exactly what I did. I had to show lots of paperwork, bills in my name, apartment rent payment and cashed rent checks, bank account info etc. But once over that hurdle I was in like Flynn (except I didn't have wealthy parents in the first place).

My school is exceptionally expensive, almost $60K last academic year, and had been historically very bad with their endowment and earning money from inventions, and was one of the post-Civil war ones so didn't it have centuries of compounding donations. Iffy alumni loyalty, particularly for unrestricted donations. In face, tuition was very very highly prized because it was unrestricted....

All I can say is, I hope a quarter million for an undergrad is worth it to you and that it helps you land a high paying job out of the gate so you can start paying off any loans. Statistically, at around 5 to 7 years post-graduation, your much lower tuition paying state school peers will end up at job parity with you. Unless your school offers some highly specific specialty program that you can't get anywhere else.

I've written here quite a bit about my school experience and why it doesn't have to put new grads into unbelievable debt. I did freshmen through MS for under $30k out of pocket -- in the U.S and not all that long ago. Looking at the subject the last few years I've no reason to think it can't still be done for maybe no more than $45-50k. Paying off all of my student debt 3 years out of undergrad, then earning enough to cover my M.S. out of pocket is a pretty awesome feeling. (BTW My school's entire endowment wouldn't even add up to MIT's yearly earned interest on their's)

If you really think that your school is where you have to go, most outrageously expensive private schools have a handsome tuition assistance program if you can figure out how to work the system -- these days you can probably get an undergrad from one of those schools for less than I paid for my education. They probably do everything they can not to advertise is. But you have to have lots of chutzpah and don't take no for an answer. Hit the tuition assistance office daily, be a squeaky wheel, adjust your living conditions to suite the requirements for maximum assistance. Need to make less than $x per year? Do that. Need to not be a dependent of your parents? Do that (make sure they take you off of their taxes, you might need a copy). Get extra assistance as a school employee? Get a crap job cleaning floors.

Do not pay the inflated sticker price just to have fashionable brand recognition for a brand that won't matter in the job market in 7 years.

Do the math and optimize. If you aren't willing to do that, it might be worth reevaluating why you went to an "exceptionally expensive" school in the first place.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#228

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

hga wrote: post #17
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #12

"Students should be warned that doing a paid internship can negatively impact your ability to finish up paying for school." Or a job of any kind. Same thing happened to me.

Don't know about you, but there was no way she could win. Her financial aid package wasn't covering her costs, and making money to close the gap just reduced the aid.

Same here, on my third attempt to get Fin Aid, I tracked my time spent working on it. It was the first year that I received any money. It worked out to ~5 Dollars per hour.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#229

Post by hef19898 »

a_bonobo wrote: post #208
gems wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's false that any of what I said can be true for some (or many) students? How do you determine if you're one of those students?

You're right, the above posters generalize way too much. They are either CS or Maths students and as such are already well-prepared for self-study! If you study Maths you already know what all the symbols like epsilon, e etc. mean, you can just gloss over a mathematical text and get the gist of it. Same goes for many (but not all!!!) CS-students, some unis lean a lot on algebra, some don't do much maths after the fir…

Well, you could certainly do it when you start with "Maths 101" or something like that.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#230

Post by sillysaurus »

graycat wrote: post #213
sillysaurus wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

graycat, would you mind putting an email in your "about" section of your profile so I can contact you? I have some questions about trouble I'm running into in regards to some of the examples you presented.

You first, and I'll read your "about" and write you. For now I'm trying to remain anonymous on HN. I may not be able to help you much in academics since I quit being a college prof long ago and am now a solo founder of an information technology startup.

Done, thanks!
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