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U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

nytimes.com

221–230 of 241 posts

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#221
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moral compass that led us to slavery, the genocide of the Native Americans, and Japanese internment camps? The idea that the USA was formerly moral but has given it up lately isn't really supported by history.

And being the only nation on the planet to ever use nuclear weapons in anger. On civilian populations. Twice. When one talks about things that happened outside of the lifetime of one's audience, the response tends to just be "oh but that was a long time ago", hence the observations on recent trends.

Yes, nuclear weapons used on a nation that started the war, total war I might add, with the US as well as numerous other nations in their vicinity in an effort to dominate and possibly remove the populace through violence.

But I suppose the better option was to conduct a land invasion of Japan which would have likely led to much more death and destruction. It seems the people of Germany had a positive note to consider while they were sifting through the rubble of their cities after the extensive carpet bombings the Allies conducted when they invaded their country; at least they weren't bombed with nuclear weapons.

It just bothers me when someone mentions that the US is the only country to use nuclear weapons on a civilian population in anger but not offer any sort of context as to why they did such a thing. Without context you are heavily implying that the US government just randomly decided to nuke civilians just for kicks. Which is quite sad since you are essentially doing the very thing you complain about in your second sentence, willfully forgetting your history.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I were Chilean I wouldn't be outraged. I did some light reading on this topic. How exactly were a large number of people saved from death? Did you misspeak? Because from what I've read, the overthrow of Chile's elected government actually resulted in a large number of people dying/being tortured/'disappearing'. I'm guessing the Chileans who you spoke to weren't from that group.

Thousands died, but if you compare the numbers against the numbers that died under communism in Cuba, Russia, China, East Germany and various countries in Africa it can be used as a convincing example of ends-justify-the-means foreign interventionism.

That's quite a leap you're making, from Allende to Gulags and famine.

You should stick to subjects you actually know something about.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#223
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're social welfare groups, by law. And the intent of the registering persons is not to create a social welfare group, but to hide the identity of political donors. The creators in this case gave their groups names indicating they intended to use the group fraudulently. The IRS was completely correct to investigate them.

Now wait a second: in the message I'm replying to, you said they were " charities ... suspected to be engaged in political activities ". Now they're social welfare groups ... but how is hiding the identity of "political donors" a problem? They're allowed to do that! And you need to be more specific about how these charities, excuse me, social welfare groups, are fraudulent, you haven't clearly outlined what you claim…

Engaging in political activities as 100% of their operation. For instance, Karl Rove's Crossroads GPS entity. If you can point to any social welfare activity Mr. Rove is engaged in, I'd love to see it. But his group's primary purpose is required to be social welfare.

Rove's group pays no taxes because it is supposedly a social welfare group, but it's actually a political slush fund. And the Republicans, having broken the law flagrantly, are now attempting to prevent the IRS from taking any action to end their abuse of the tax-exempt nonprofit status. That's the scandal.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/05/irs-sc...

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#224
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have political opposition groups targeted for audits What happened was the IRS decided to ask extra questions for groups attempting to register as charities but suspected to be engaged in political activities. If, as you say, they were "political opposition groups" then the IRS was completely correct in reviewing their applications; they didn't qualify to be charities. Why do "political opposition groups" deserv…

>What happened was the IRS decided to ask extra questions for groups attempting to register as charities but suspected to be engaged in political activities. That's okay, in and of itself. The problem is they only did this to conservative groups, while leaving obvious law-breakers on the left (like MMFA) alone.

By "leaving them alone", you mean "has investigated them numerous times at the urging of various conservatives, and found they didn't violate the law".

In other words, the IRS has applied the same standard to MMFA that the Republicans so vigorously object to having applied to them.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#225
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And being the only nation on the planet to ever use nuclear weapons in anger. On civilian populations. Twice. When one talks about things that happened outside of the lifetime of one's audience, the response tends to just be "oh but that was a long time ago", hence the observations on recent trends.

Yes, nuclear weapons used on a nation that started the war, total war I might add, with the US as well as numerous other nations in their vicinity in an effort to dominate and possibly remove the populace through violence. But I suppose the better option was to conduct a land invasion of Japan which would have likely led to much more death and destruction. It seems the people of Germany had a positive note to conside…

it wasnt the only option. naval blockade, starving them of critical wartime resources like oil/rubber/many others would have also ended the war....

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#226
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And being the only nation on the planet to ever use nuclear weapons in anger. On civilian populations. Twice. When one talks about things that happened outside of the lifetime of one's audience, the response tends to just be "oh but that was a long time ago", hence the observations on recent trends.

Yes, nuclear weapons used on a nation that started the war, total war I might add, with the US as well as numerous other nations in their vicinity in an effort to dominate and possibly remove the populace through violence. But I suppose the better option was to conduct a land invasion of Japan which would have likely led to much more death and destruction. It seems the people of Germany had a positive note to conside…

land invasion was not necessary, as Japan was very close to surrender any ways. using nuclear weapons was not needed to end the war.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#227
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now wait a second: in the message I'm replying to, you said they were " charities ... suspected to be engaged in political activities ". Now they're social welfare groups ... but how is hiding the identity of "political donors" a problem? They're allowed to do that! And you need to be more specific about how these charities, excuse me, social welfare groups, are fraudulent, you haven't clearly outlined what you claim…

Engaging in political activities as 100% of their operation. For instance, Karl Rove's Crossroads GPS entity. If you can point to any social welfare activity Mr. Rove is engaged in, I'd love to see it. But his group's primary purpose is required to be social welfare. Rove's group pays no taxes because it is supposedly a social welfare group, but it's actually a political slush fund. And the Republicans, having broken…

Crossroads GPS claims public policy advocacy, which is certainly allowed under 501(c)(4) (compare to the NRA's lobbying arm, the Institute for Legislative action, also a 501(c)(4), albeit not partisan, see again Republican ex-Senator Lugar spending more time with his family), and fits into the broad category of "social welfare".

"Rove's group pays no taxes..." because it is a non-profit. Contributions for political activity are taxed. And claims that it's a "slush fund", with all the connotations that implies, need more than just a bald accusation.

Look, this corruption of the political process is worse than Watergate, because it was successful in suppressing a lot of election year political activity, compared to the latter getting caught early and therefore not going very far. It calls into question the very legitimacy of Obama's reelection, as pointed out by e.g. James Tatarnto: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732371630457848... A lot of people including myself were wondering where the "Tea Party" was in the 2012 election ... well, now we know part of the answer: getting stomped upon by the IRS, or avoiding that and staying too small to matter.

You can stop your ears up and say "La, la, la" all you want, but we on the other side are not buying it. And your side should think really hard about the ultimate long term consequences of illegally suppressing the loyal opposition, if we're pushed out of the political process, that doesn't leave us with any palatable options.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#228
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass starvation and huge prison camps, yeah I bet they're overjoyed with their US 'benefits'.

I don't think you have a clear understanding of just which competing hegemonies ended up influencing which parts of Korea...

Well, in 1980 Pyongyang was one of the most efficient cities in SE Asia while according to US officials Seoul was a heaving mess of "sweatshops to make Dante or Engels faint", and in 1948 ~100,000 Koreans sympathetic to the North were rounded up and put in prisons (~30,000) or concentration camps (~70,000).

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#229
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What happened was the IRS decided to ask extra questions for groups attempting to register as charities but suspected to be engaged in political activities. That's okay, in and of itself. The problem is they only did this to conservative groups, while leaving obvious law-breakers on the left (like MMFA) alone.

By "leaving them alone", you mean "has investigated them numerous times at the urging of various conservatives, and found they didn't violate the law". In other words, the IRS has applied the same standard to MMFA that the Republicans so vigorously object to having applied to them.

>By "leaving them alone", you mean "has investigated them numerous times at the urging of various conservatives, and found they didn't violate the law".

No, I don't mean that at all. The IRS has decidedly not applied the same standard. I would have thought the fact that the president himself has described the IRS's conduct as "outrageous" as he tries to run away from the scandal would clue you in a bit.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, nuclear weapons used on a nation that started the war, total war I might add, with the US as well as numerous other nations in their vicinity in an effort to dominate and possibly remove the populace through violence. But I suppose the better option was to conduct a land invasion of Japan which would have likely led to much more death and destruction. It seems the people of Germany had a positive note to conside…

it wasnt the only option. naval blockade, starving them of critical wartime resources like oil/rubber/many others would have also ended the war....

To produce such a result much death and destruction would have had to continue to create the blockade and then to enforce it. Since we're guessing here on possible outcomes of what ifs, I would think it likely that would have resulted in famine among the civilian population.

Plus there's the conspiracy theory that the US cutting off Japan of necessary war materials is what led to Pearl Harbor in the first place.

But I agree, it wasn't the only option. They could have waged the same war to the bitter end, starved them out, use nukes, asked nicely for them to stop, or who knows how many more. Options were presented, an option was chosen.

Nevertheless, this has nothing to do with my complaint of lack of context of the reasoning for using nuclear weapons at the time.

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